# "In Iraq, Things Really Aren't That Bad" - I told you so! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 14, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793 "2003-06-14T13:10:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/61 "2003-06-15T13:53:41Z")
Sorry to have ruffled your egomaniacal high-falutin moralistic feathers. Seems to me all you’ve done hear is provide your own op-ed piece to this forum. Your continued campaign to lead the malicious attack on **December** for the entertainment of your sycophants is a blight on this messageboard and I will continue to say so. In fact, considering deep wrenching hatred you spew towards him has motivated your “op-ed” piece, It leaves me with wondering how credible the “facts” you reported are. Indeed, you are a sick, sick human being. And you, least of all have no business in charging anyone with smearing others. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/62 "2003-06-15T13:57:42Z")
Well my whinging little depends wearing worm, my facts come with citations to CPA-I and international security cordination office documentation and also correlate with the body of reporting on the situation, including by such non-liberal sources as the Financial Times and The Economist. It’s unsurprising I suppose in the end that you are too dim to tell the difference in quality of information. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/63 "2003-06-15T14:23:34Z")
I don’t particularly creep and crawl to **Collounsbury** ’s meter, I find he can be abrasive to the point of rudeness, however **december** is very selective in who he quotes, what part of the total is quoted - often out of context, and simply refutes evidence whilst citing opinion from non-independant sources as fact. I have not noticed \*\*Collounsbury[b/] doing that, his links always check out, and he is not alone in his view either, and their cites check out. If I were in **Collounsbury** ’s position, where I was quoting details with which I had direct and personal experience, and was countered by someone who was so deliberately and willfully wrong, and in the face of what I knew and could prove, I think I would become less civil too. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/64 "2003-06-15T14:29:13Z")
**grienspace** , you come across as one one the less intellectually blessed people on this board. Remember [this?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3549279#post3549279) > [@](#): > > It is my view that **december** is the arch non religious conservative member on this board . He shows a great deal of respect to everyone and is second only to **Polycarp** in this regard. There is no way in this fucking universe that **december** is any kind of non-religious conservative version of **Polycarp**. 1. **december** is quite open about his religion, it’s not a secret that **december** has strong religious beliefs. That you would label him as non-religious is _absolutely fucking bizarre_. 2. **december** is a liar, a weasel, a distorter of facts. **Polycarp** is none of those things. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/65 "2003-06-15T15:40:04Z")
**Desmostylus** , the degree to which Collounsbury has brainwashed you is astounding. More so when you make it so clear that you Col sycophants have no reservations about spewing absolute untruths about him. So you say its no secret uh? Absolutely fucking bizarre is it ? You’re absolutely fucking bizarre! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/66 "2003-06-15T15:44:58Z")
Oh, btw I just caught on to your strawman. I only compared **December** to **Polycarp** in regard to respecting others. Can you understand that? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/67 "2003-06-15T15:52:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > > 1. **december** is quite open about his religion, it’s not a secret that **december** has strong religious beliefs. That you would label him as non-religious is _absolutely fucking bizarre_. I have said I was an atheist a number of times on this board. > [@](#): > > 1. **december** is a liar, a weasel, a distorter of facts. You’re wrong about this as well. **grienspace** , after many debates with the learned **Collounsbury** , I have learned his language. Hidden within his verbosity and insults is an admission that I was right. Recall that the OP of the other debate quoted columnist Mark Steyn, who had spent two weeks doing a solo auto tour of much of Iraq, but not Baghdad. He said:[ul][_]There’s no dysentery or cholera, [_]no sign of a human catastrophe, [_]the medical centres are empty and medical supplies are adequate [_]the countryside (outside Baghdad) is charming. [_]The refugees are primarily Palestinian. “In other words, this isn’t a human crisis but Arab politics - the longstanding refusal by Middle Eastern regimes to accord Palestinian residents any kind of legal status.”[_]Despite the supposed “anarchy”, no one’s fleeing.[_] In the western towns, which were relatively unscathed by the war, the Ba’athist buildings are the sole target of highly focused looting. Everything else is untouched [_]There’s plenty of food and water. [/ul] **Collounsbury** admitted that “the worst case scenarios did not come to pass.” In other words, he admitted that Steyn was right. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/68 "2003-06-15T16:03:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **I have said I was an atheist a number of times on this board. You’re wrong about this as well.** Show me those instances, so that I may revise my opinion of you. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/69 "2003-06-15T16:06:29Z")
My last post should read: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*I have said I was an atheist a number of times on this board. \*\* Show me those instances, so that I may revise my opinion of you. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/70 "2003-06-15T16:12:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*Show me those instances, so that I may revise my opinion of you. \*\* Try the “search” function. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/71 "2003-06-15T16:16:25Z")
Just answer the question, weasel. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/72 "2003-06-15T16:20:28Z")
Now, Desmostylus, I do like you very much and hesitate to say this, but that’s not very nice. You may have plenty of legitimate beefs with december’s beliefs and topics, but making an accusation about him and requiring he prove himself innocent of it is just not cricket. Especially when Search is working right now. First hit: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176977](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176977) > [@](#): > > I don’t believe in Christianity, but I admire many its values. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/73 "2003-06-15T16:22:16Z")
Of course, that quote I posted says nothing about atheism. december could be a very devout Muslim and make such a statement as well… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/74 "2003-06-15T16:24:42Z")
No **december** What **Collounsbury** was not that Steyn was right, but rather that things did not get as bad as they possibly could. Your original position in the OP was in fact "Things in Iraq aren’t that bad’. Overstating the worst possible case scenario is one heck of a stretch from saying "Things in Iraq aren’t that bad’, and this is one powerful example of your distortion, I would have at least expected you would not try to be so blatent as to do this from your own OP! He also added that due to information not coming in from the majority of medical centres in Iraq, it was actually impossible to say with real authority what the situation truly is. > [@](#): > > from **Collounsbury** > > Even now due to security issues, while materials are around, there are serious issues in getting supplies to hospitals and medical supplies remain an issue. > [@](#): > > from **december** > the medical centres are empty and medical supplies are adequate WTF? either one half of your statemnt is true, or the other, or neither, but it is not possible for it all to be tue.In any case this does not tally with your assertion that **Collounsbury** agrees with Steyn or yourself. > [@](#): > > from **december** > no sign of a human catastrophe… > > …There’s plenty of food and water. …and the response > [@](#): > > **Collounsbury** > > However, insofar as noted by CPA-I briefings themselves, most of the population is unable to supplement rations and insofar as there are serious problems in distribution due to insecurity, ‘starvation’ in the sense of malnutrition and serious undernourishment (versus starving to death) is indeed a bloody problem. Widespread hunger is and remains a problem since the collapse of the regime. This does not seem like a ringing endorsement of your OP **december** > [@](#): > > Collounsbury admitted that “the worst case scenarios did not come to pass.” In other words, he admitted that Steyn was right. I just cannot see how you can reconcile Steyn, which you originally quoted, with **Collounsbury** this is a gross distortion and an extremely intellectually dishonest statement by you **december** I cannot help but wonder if your last post is an attempt to get **Collounsbury** to cross the policy lines on the SDMB so he will be banned, it so little resembles what he actually posted that it is grotesque. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/75 "2003-06-15T16:41:05Z")
It is a pity that [b[december\*\* has chosen a topic of actual importance upon which to build his Op-Ed empire. Dear fellow, did nobody tell you, as a child, that the moon was made of green cheese? A far less offensive topic, and one that would generate considerably less ire, though to be fair I don’t recall seeing many bloggers expounding on the virtues of various cheeses in its composition. Or, at this point, are you just riding the wave of misinformation and blog-comme-verité to its bitter end? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/76 "2003-06-15T16:52:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*Just so we get this straight. You’re not arguing his premise in this thread. You just want to bash him because he’s December. > > Got it. \*\* Bee-eye-enn-gee-ohh, and Collunsbury is the worst of the lot. I wonder whose side I would take if I were plucked out of the 16th century, exposed to the threads on the SDMB and then asked who was most likely to be right? On one side there is a calm recounting of facts and opinions as the poster sees them, on the other is a ranting ideologue whose arguements are shakey and who relies 90% of the time on hearsay to back up his claims. I imagine that would be an easy choice. December, your arguements are frequently based on the most unlikely and unreliable of sources and you willfully allow your politics to blind you to the obvious, but you’re certainly a poster I value having here, you make me think( don’t get a swelled head, frequently the conclusion I reach after thinking is that you’re wrong 😉 ) Colls and the rest of his ilk feel that bombast and hysteria is a valid method of debate, frothing at the mouth with outrage and seeting with resentment simply because you’re not blindly mouthing fealty to liberal ideology. Oh, and in reguards to the OP, you’re right, in spite of his profanity laced screed, Collunsbury basically admitted that you were right several times, Things in Iraq are not as bad as the doomsayers are trying to paint them. I think he’s bitterly disapointed that most Iraqis aren’t lying dead in the streets as we speak. Sure, it would be bad for the Iraqis, but wow, would it ever prove him right, and what’s more important than that? HOWEVER… Things in Iraq are not “good” by any streach of the imagination, and I, also, would like to see a cite for your claim that some basic services in Iraq now excede pre-war levels. A Colunsburyeske “I heard it somewhere” dosen’t cut it. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/77 "2003-06-15T17:08:19Z")
**Desmostylus** , I assure you that **december** has repeatedly and consistently identified himself as an atheist, though he frequently sympathizes with conservative Christian political points of view, even on church-state issues. **grienspace** : > [@](#): > > Sorry to have ruffled your egomaniacal high-falutin moralistic feathers. Seems to me all you’ve done hear is provide your own op-ed piece to this forum. Are you high? **Collounsbury** provided assessments from the American authorities who are governing Iraq, right down to daily incident logs. He recounted the first-hand experiences of people he personally knows who do business inside Iraq. He provided multiple hard news stories, largely from sources that are anything but liberal. There wasn’t an “op-ed piece” anywhere in his detailed, informative, and by-god welcome posts. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/78 "2003-06-15T17:58:22Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by december_ > Before the war, those of us planning for post-conflict Iraq worried about these possibilities: up to one million refugees, widespread food shortages, epidemics, acute homelessness, a shutdown of the oil industry and **general lawlessness.** > > In the end, only the last became reality… Maybe I’m just a bit dense, but in my book: “Things really aren’t that bad” != General lawlessness ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/79 "2003-06-15T19:54:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*My last post should read: Show me those instances, so that I may revise my opinion of you. \*\* This is a bit of a shocker, but… [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1832791&highlight=atheist#post1832791](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1832791&highlight=atheist#post1832791) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1832791&highlight=atheist#post1832791](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1832791&highlight=atheist#post1832791) ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/80 "2003-06-15T21:46:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\*On one side there is a calm recounting of facts and opinions as the poster sees them, on the other is a ranting ideologue whose arguements are shakey and who relies 90% of the time on hearsay to back up his claims. \*\* Doesn’t it matter to you **at all** if the sources on which the calm person relies are opinion pieces based on third-hand information, and compiled by someone who as never set foot in the region, and who has an obvious political agenda? Or is it somehow inferior to rely on “hearsay” which actually consists of firsthand experience and personal conversations with people who have spent their careers dealing directly with the region, and transmitted by someone who has spent his career dealing with the region and therefore knows how to choose sources based on their relative objectivity and filter out the crap? Or perhaps the mere fact of expert opinions being quoted by some conservative blog makes them somehow superior information sources, and the very same ideas are magically converted from “hearsay” into Shining Golden Objective Unquestionable Truth, by virtue of having appeared in print somewhere. Somehow the same “hearsay” doesn’t seem to give you pause when it’s been spun by a hawk with no regional or historical perspective. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793.md?page=5)