# "In Iraq, Things Really Aren't That Bad" - I told you so! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 14, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793 "2003-06-14T13:10:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/161 "2003-06-18T00:14:21Z")
Well **istara** , sadly, that kind of bears out my prediction in the thread created by Sam Stone prior to the war in which we were invited to make predictions on about 10 different structured categories. My greatest worry at the time was, and remains, what was going to become of the poor troops AFTER the war - insofar as it was probably going to resemble Vietnam after a while - namely, language barrier problems and an inability for the troops to be able to distinguish non-combatants from geurilla’s dressed as innocent civilians etc. Worst of all, there are various folks in the region, it seems to me, who have some pressing agendas in seeing the US effort actually fail. As **Collounsbury** has pointed out countless times, there are a lot of vested interests and conflicts of interests in the region - and the mere presence of 140,000 US troops walking the streets of Iraq has provided 140,000 bullseye targets for the sabotage folks to aim at. The mortality rate… infant birth mortality is just shocking at the moment. Poor hospital equipment… hardyly anything working and huge amounts looted and damaged by vandals. Illiteracy? Rampant. Social infrastructures? Shattered. It all adds up to an incredibly fertile recipe for breeding amazingly bitter resentment, and those poor bastards who are the US troops on the ground are the targets. I suspect things will get worse yet before they get better. Quite simply, I predict it would take 1 million plus troops to bring stability to the place at the moment. Anything less than that simply allows the borders to be incredibly porous. Of course, the perverse logic to such an action is that you would ALSO radically increase the exposure of your troops to geurilla attacks. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/162 "2003-06-18T01:41:28Z")
All of which just goes to show we have absolutely no business being there. 40 years ago, when I was a child, we were involved in a guerrilla war in a foreign country that turned out to be unwinnable. Hopefully, it won’t be a case of _plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose_. Hopefully. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/163 "2003-06-18T01:43:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > **Millroy, even if you think minty’s posting style sucks eggs, or that he’s factually wrong, or whatever, people should argue his points, not just mindlessly bash him.** I wasn’t bashing minty. He stated that Col gave “first rate information”, and I questioned how he knew that the info was indeed first rate? After all, neither minty, no Col, can or will provide his credentials. So how do we know that Col is not indeed: > [@](#): > > a 22 year old girl from Idaho who is majoring in Mid-East studies at Boise State. Yeah, sometimes he provides cites that agree with his POV, but then he dismisses any other cites as lies, distortions, drooling idiocy, what have you, without showing how the other cites are incorrect, other than that they don’t agree with The Great and Powerful Collounsbury. Ignore the man behind the curtain! Collounsbury has spoken! Cue flames, and big green head. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/164 "2003-06-18T03:01:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > After all, neither minty, no Col, can or will provide his credentials. Like you’ve ever asked. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/165 "2003-06-18T03:08:44Z")
Not sure what your point is there, minty. I, and others, have asked, and he simply won’t do it. He claims that his posts should be good enough. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/166 "2003-06-18T06:26:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Like you’ve ever asked. \*\* I asked. It’s too late tonight to find the link, but I can tomorrow if anyone is interested. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/167 "2003-06-18T07:09:38Z")
December made what IMHO is a very resoned and reasonable post. Why hasn’t anyone commented on it? You may say “Oh, it’s december, he’ll weasel or change his position” but in that’s a huge cop out. I think that many of you dismiss “december as just being december” because it’s easier for you that way. Sure a lot, if not most, of his posts are idologicaly driven glurge, and he does have a tendency to wiggle out of his position, base his arguements on what is nothing more than someone else’s opinion and slightly change what he’s saying to “prove” that his opponents are wrong, but I would estimate that about 20-25% of what he posts actually has a great deal of merit to it. By refusing to consider the merits of his points on a case by case basis, y’all are doing 2 things: #1 You’re not fighting ignorance, you’re embracing it. Beliefs and truth are forged in the fire of controversy and debate, dismissing ANY thought out of hand simply because of it’s source is doing a HUGE disservice to this process. #2 You’re being pussies. That’s right, you’re wimping out. I’ve often wondered, seriously, how all of you december bashers would react if december posted an OP; “The sky is blue”. I imagine many of you would tie yourselves in knots trying to define the sky as green, simply because “If december says it, it’s not true”. You say “We get tired of the same old thing”, but THAT’S WHAT FIGHTING IGNORANCE IS ALL ABOUT, the same old thing, day after day. By dismissing december because you’re too lazy to refute any falsehoods he posts point by point, you’re simply demonstrating that it is you who is not willing to expend the effort to defend your positions. December hangs in there, thread after thread, defending his opinion, and he is just one person. There are at least a dozen of you hard core december haters out there, why can’t y’all keep up with substance and not simply give up and resort to kindegarden insults and pre-teen inuendo? You’re never going to change december’s mind, but y’all have given up on even debating his points. Like I said, occasionally, he is right and y’all are wrong. Refusing learn from that means that y’all have voluntarily refused to consider any opinion that dosen’t mirror your own AND LEARN FROM IT. IMHO, that makes YOU the morons here. In case anyone is interested, here is december’s post that prompted this rant: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally posted by istara > > december - once and for all, why don’t you come to this region and see for yourself? I will even shout you a fucking airticket (economy if that is OK because I am not that loaded) and hotel. You can email me your acceptance via my profile. > > I’d love to visit Dubai. I have been to Israel a couple of times. I met Arabs who were friendly and also encountered Arabs who seethed with hatred. Next time I go to the Middle East I may just accept your invitation to visit Dubai. > > > [@](#): > > > > Then - once you’ve been here a week, met a few muslims and Arabs, and the “white” people that actually count themselves friends of these muslims and Arabs, and even some jewish people that live here quite happily and regard muslims and Arabs as their friends and colleagues, then if you really want to, you can go back to spewing your bigoted shit. > > I’m sorry you think I’m bigoted. I’m not. The religion or race of people doesn’t interest me. I oppose people who commit acts of terrorism and mass murder, especially when my relatives and friends are their targets. > > But, hatred of Israel and of Jews isn’t caused by people being Arabs or being Muslims. The hatred is promoted by institutions within some of the Arab countries. Mistreatment of gays and women isn’t intrinsic to Islam or to being an Arab. These are unfortunately in the culture of some of the ME. I believe the culture can change. > > BTW there are Arabs who believe the Palestinian leadership is entirely in the wrong. E.g., from a recent column by [Joseph Farah](http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33064): > > > [@](#): > > > > I also don’t believe there will ever be peace between Israel and the so-called “Palestinians” because of any negotiations. > > > > Time after time, Yasser Arafat, Hamas and the other Palestinian terrorists have demonstrated an inclination to increase violence whenever the peace stakes get too high. Neither Arafat nor Hamas want an independent Palestinian state living in peace and harmony with a Jewish state. They want only the elimination of a Jewish state. Period. End of story. > > > > There is such a thing in life as an irreconcilable difference. That is what stands in the way of peace talks between these two parties. Israel is all-too willing to give up territory in exchange for peace. Arafat and Hamas are not willing to accept such terms – and never will be. > > I don’t see the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians in racial or religious terms. Israel wants to exist as a Jewish homeland, and I want them to exist. > > Unfortunately some of the Palestinians and other Arabs _do_ see this conflict in religious terms. Antisemitic material is presented in some Arab countries. Anti-semitic attacks by Arabs are on the rise in many parts of the world. The attackers don’t distinguish between fighting Israel and fighting Jews. I have nothing against Arabs or Muslims. I don’t bomb mosques or attack Islamic religious leaders. I just want to be left alone. \*\* Debate that post _simply on it’s own merits_, december bashers, without saying “Oh, december will weasel” or something of the sort. I fucking dare you to do it. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/168 "2003-06-18T08:21:21Z")
\>\> Debate that post simply on it’s own merits, december bashers, without saying “Oh, december will weasel” or something of the sort. I fucking dare you to do it. Nope. I am not going to do it. I have wasted way too much time arguing with december and I have _never_ seen him be resonable, with me or with others. He does not deserve to be taken seriously. He has brought it upon himself. And BTW, as he mentions in the OP, this is the second time he starts a thread with the same topic. He wasn’t reasonable the first time around and he’s not reasonable the second time around. Why should anyone take him seriously? I am not going to fall in the trap of wasting a lot of time arguing with him for nothing. He’s a clown looking to stir a reaction and I can decide what my reaction will be. Most of he time I decide to ignore him but I am entitled to call him a clown and an idiot. He owes me too many serious discussions to demand I take him seriously. He has ruined too many threads and has lost _any_ right to be taken seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/169 "2003-06-18T09:42:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > **December made what IMHO is a very resoned and reasonable post. Why hasn’t anyone commented on it? You may say “Oh, it’s december, he’ll weasel or change his position” but in that’s a huge cop out. I think that many of you dismiss “december as just being december” because it’s easier for you that way. Sure a lot, if not most, of his posts are idologicaly driven glurge, and he does have a tendency to wiggle out of his position, base his arguements on what is nothing more than someone else’s opinion and slightly change what he’s saying to “prove” that his opponents are wrong, but I would estimate that about 20-25% of what he posts actually has a great deal of merit to it. By refusing to consider the merits of his points on a case by case basis, y’all are doing 2 things: #1 You’re not fighting ignorance, you’re embracing it. Beliefs and truth are forged in the fire of controversy and debate, dismissing ANY thought out of hand simply because of it’s source is doing a HUGE disservice to this process. #2 You’re being pussies. That’s right, you’re wimping out. I’ve often wondered, seriously, how all of you december bashers would react if december posted an OP; “The sky is blue”. I imagine many of you would tie yourselves in knots trying to define the sky as green, simply because “If december says it, it’s not true”. You say “We get tired of the same old thing”, but THAT’S WHAT FIGHTING IGNORANCE IS ALL ABOUT, the same old thing, day after day. By dismissing december because you’re too lazy to refute any falsehoods he posts point by point, you’re simply demonstrating that it is you who is not willing to expend the effort to defend your positions. December hangs in there, thread after thread, defending his opinion, and he is just one person. There are at least a dozen of you hard core december haters out there, why can’t y’all keep up with substance and not simply give up and resort to kindegarden insults and pre-teen inuendo? You’re never going to change december’s mind, but y’all have given up on even debating his points. Like I said, occasionally, he is right and y’all are wrong. Refusing learn from that means that y’all have voluntarily refused to consider any opinion that dosen’t mirror your own AND LEARN FROM IT. IMHO, that makes YOU the morons here.** Why the fuck don’t you do what you’re advocating everyone else should do, **Weirddave**? Your entire post consists of nothing but moaning about **december** , and the **december** bashers. What’s this “why hasn’t any commented on it” shit? Lots of people have commented. If you mean “why hasn’t anyone said anything positive”, then why the fuck didn’t you just say something positive? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/170 "2003-06-18T11:39:55Z")
I wasn’t referring to Collounsbury, but miroyj was definitely referring to me in that credentials crack. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/171 "2003-06-18T13:16:06Z")
Hey **Desmostylus** , until you own up to your own outright proven mischaracterization of other posters, I’d say you better shut up. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/172 "2003-06-18T13:18:00Z")
> [@](#): > > [Iraq ‘too dangerous to rebuild’](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2999368.stm) > > British and American troops have to get a grip on Baghdad because lawlessness is hampering attempts to rebuild Iraq, the UK’s international development secretary has warned. Baroness Amos is so concerned about the dangerous security situation in the Iraqi capital she has postponed a trip there. december, what say ye? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/173 "2003-06-18T13:27:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*Not sure what your point is there, minty. I, and others, have asked, and he simply won’t do it. He claims that his posts should be good enough. \*\* Can someone explain to me the value of posting ‘credentials’ on an anonymous message board? [Cheech and Chong] He’s got an MA, a BA, a PhD, and is a BFM besides… [/Cheech and Chong] If you don’t believe them _now_, are you gonna believe they’d be honest about the ‘credentials’ they post? Or did I completely miss the point again? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/174 "2003-06-18T13:38:04Z")
**Dave** : a dead clock is right twice a day. **sailor** : you may be wasting your time there. I think he’s abandoned this thread. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/175 "2003-06-18T13:40:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > [Cheech and Chong] > He’s got an MA, a BA, a PhD, and is a BFM besides… > [/Cheech and Chong] BA, MA, and JD, actually. You’re quite right that milroy’s whining about credentials is pretty pointless, but there you go. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/176 "2003-06-18T13:43:17Z")
That’s pretty old. Doesn’t work for the majority of modern dead clocks. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/177 "2003-06-18T14:05:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > > > [@](#): > > > > British and American troops have to get a grip on Baghdad because lawlessness is hampering attempts to rebuild Iraq, the UK’s international development secretary has warned. Baroness Amos is so concerned about the dangerous security situation in the Iraqi capital she has postponed a trip there. > > \*\*december, what say ye? \*\* A month ago, columnist Mark Steyn spent two weeks driving around Iraq on his own, with no bodyguards. Sounds like Baroness Amos simply isn’t as brave as Steyn. Seriously, there’s no doubt that there’s a dangerous security situation in Iraq right now. Americans seem to be attacked on almost a daily basis. This is something our troops will have to deal with. It’s a real problem – one of many. But, it’s separate from the OP. I didn’t mean to say that things were perfect in Iraq. I said that some allegations were exaggerated, like the stories about widespread famine and large numbers of people unable to get hospital care. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/178 "2003-06-18T14:08:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > \*\*That’s pretty old. Doesn’t work for the majority of modern dead clocks. \*\* Well, december’s profile says he’s retired. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/179 "2003-06-18T15:05:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*Why the fuck don’t you do what you’re advocating everyone else should do, **Weirddave**? Your entire post consists of nothing but moaning about **december** , and the **december** bashers. What’s this “why hasn’t any commented on it” shit? Lots of people have commented. If you mean “why hasn’t anyone said anything positive”, then why the fuck didn’t you just say something positive? \*\* I did: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\*December made what IMHO is a very resoned and reasonable post. \*\* AND, contrary to your assertion, nobody has commenented on that post except sailor who only commented to say he wasn’t going to comment. I guess he agrees with december on this point as well. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/180 "2003-06-19T00:22:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*I wasn’t referring to Collounsbury, but miroyj was definitely referring to me in that credentials crack. \*\* I should have worded that better. What I meant to say was: “After all, neither minty, nor Col, can or will provide **Col’s** credentials.” There was no crack at you, real or intended. Apologies for any confusion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793.md?page=10)