# In music B# = C instead of Cb? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 10, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-music-b-c-instead-of-cb/505986 "2009-08-10T21:53:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jamicat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c67d28/32.png) [@Jamicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamicat)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-music-b-c-instead-of-cb/505986/41 "2009-08-17T01:06:46Z")
Oh, and the B major chord is the only strange major chord pattern on the piano, as far as A,B,C,D,E,F,G go. I have a song that uses it…and I forget what the shape is almost every time. :rolleyes: On guitar all shapes are the same regardless of key. (I’m not a concert pianist…I just write stuff) ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-music-b-c-instead-of-cb/505986/42 "2009-08-17T01:26:18Z")
> [@Jamicat](#): > > Oh, and the B major chord is the only strange major chord pattern on the piano, as far as A,B,C,D,E,F,G go. What’s strange about a B major triad? ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-music-b-c-instead-of-cb/505986/43 "2009-08-17T06:25:58Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > All of that is based on a big assumption, that of an overriding need for equal temperament at all. Most musics across the world, and most of the history of European classical music, have used other tunings. If you only play music in one key, or if you have instruments that are cheap enough to have one for each key, sure, you don’t need equal temperament at all. No problem. If you’re happy with a flute that is perfectly tuned to a key whose basic note is 453.5 Hz and which only has five notes that exactly hit the overtones, and is thus perfectly out of tune with every other instrument on the planet, heck, go for it. But here in the real world, we like to have bands and groups using finely crafted and expensive instruments that are able to play melodies in a host of different keys. If you want to have those, you definitely do have an overriding need for equal temperament. Is it better than other tunings? No, and it’s just your fantasy that anyone is saying so. Musicians like music of any type, strange tunings are like candy to musicians, when we don’t have half notes we bend strings … it’s just that if you want the ability to play in a variety of keys, it’s not optional, you must use equal tempered scales. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-music-b-c-instead-of-cb/505986/44 "2009-08-18T23:03:44Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Yes, I call it quick, compared to the history of music and musical temperaments as a whole. The opposition to ET in the west, while indeed significant, came almost entirely from the Catholic clergy due to superstitious reasons, and not lay musicians or composers. > … > > I would recommend learning a little more about the subject matter at hand… You’re telling me that musicians weren’t passionately involved in disputes about temperament, and then tag that on at the end? > [@intention](#): > > Is it better than other tunings? No, and it’s just your fantasy that anyone is saying so. Musicians like music of any type, strange tunings are like candy to musicians, when we don’t have half notes we bend strings … it’s just that if you want the ability to play in a variety of keys, it’s not optional, you must use equal tempered scales. Simply not true. Bach wrote the Well-Tempered Clavier, after all, not the Even Tempered Clavier. Well into the 19th century, even into the early history of recorded music, non-equally-tempered intonation persisted in places. The use of non-ET systems is well established among period-instrument performers of baroque music and earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Jamicat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c67d28/32.png) [@Jamicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamicat)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-music-b-c-instead-of-cb/505986/45 "2009-08-18T23:50:22Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > What’s strange about a B major triad? the 2 black notes…I’d forget one or the other on either hand and I’d all minor like 😛 ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-music-b-c-instead-of-cb/505986/46 "2009-08-19T00:01:23Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Quote: > [QUOTE=intention] > Is it better than other tunings? No, and it’s just your fantasy that anyone is saying so. Musicians like music of any type, strange tunings are like candy to musicians, when we don’t have half notes we bend strings … it’s just that if you want the ability to play in a variety of keys, it’s not optional, you must use equal tempered scales. Simply not true. Bach wrote the Well-Tempered Clavier, after all, not the Even Tempered Clavier. Well into the 19th century, even into the early history of recorded music, non-equally-tempered intonation persisted in places. The use of non-ET systems is well established among period-instrument performers of baroque music and earlier. [/QUOTE] From Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > The term “well temperament” usually means some sort of irregular temperament in which the tempered fifths are of different sizes but no key has very impure intervals. Historical irregular temperaments usually have the narrowest fifths between the diatonic notes (“naturals”) producing purer thirds, and wider fifths among the chromatic notes (“sharps and flats”). Each key then has a slightly different intonation, hence different keys have distinct characters. Such “key-color” was an essential part of much eighteenth- and nineteenth-century music and was described in treatises of the period. > > The first circular temperament was described by the organist Arnolt Schlick in the early sixteenth century, but “well temperaments” did not become widely used until the baroque period. They persisted through the classical period, and even survived into the late nineteenth century in some areas. > > There are many well temperament schemes, some nearer meantone temperament, others nearer equal temperament. Although such tunings have no wolf fifth, keys with many sharps or flats still do not sound very well in tune (due to their thirds), and can only be used fleetingly. Some theorists have sought to define “well temperament” more narrowly to exclude fifths wider than pure, which rules out many such schemes. > > Some well-known well temperaments go by the following names: > > Werckmeister temperament (invented by Andreas Werckmeister) > French Temperament Ordinaire > Neidhardt > Kirnberger > Vallotti (invented by Francesco Antonio Vallotti) > Young Now what I want to point out to you is that these are all different schemes that, like equal temperament, do not match the overtones either. You seem to be pitting equal temperament against some imaginary type of temperament that fits the overtones perfectly. But there is no such temperament. In fact, equal temperament, meantone temperament, and well temperament are all systems of approximation. Nor is it an accident that equal temperament won out over all of the other systems of approximation in the long run. It wasn’t some kind of conspiracy or rampant stupidity that made equal temperament win out over the other approximations. It won out because it fits the overtones better than the other approximations. It fits better than well temperament, Bach notwithstanding. It fits better than meantone temperament, Baroque music notwithstanding. Now, I understand that you have some kind of grudge against equal temperament. But the ugly fact is, we’ve moved on from those tunings, which leaves you sounding like someone claiming that we should still start fires with flint and steel, because they don’t like matches. Yes, flint and steel works to start fires. Yes, quarter-comma meantone temperament works to approximate the overtones. Both of them have “persisted in places” as you say. But by and large the world has discarded both of them, because a better system was found. You seem to be claiming the equal tempered system is not better than well tempered. Well, OK … then why has it been accepted world wide for almost all music? Because it’s worse? … didn’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-music-b-c-instead-of-cb/505986/47 "2009-08-26T08:28:11Z")
> [@intention](#): > > Well, OK … then why has it been accepted world wide for almost all music? Before I can answer that, the onus is on you to demonstrate that it _has_ been accepted for ‘almost all’ music. As musical traditions across the world continue to use different tunings, this is simply not the case. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Seventh\_Deadly\_Finn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6bbea6/32.png) [@The\_Seventh\_Deadly\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Seventh_Deadly_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-music-b-c-instead-of-cb/505986/48 "2009-08-26T11:06:33Z")
You know those stories about the Japanese soldiers on remote islands who never heard that WWII was over, and were, like, still fighting it in the 1970s? I wonder what it would be like to find someone like that, only the war whose end they hadn’t heard about was, say, the Hundred Years War, or some other war from like 500 years ago? Yeah. I wonder what that would be like. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-music-b-c-instead-of-cb/505986/49 "2009-08-29T07:12:35Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Before I can answer that, the onus is on you to demonstrate that it _has_ been accepted for ‘almost all’ music. As musical traditions across the world continue to use different tunings, this is simply not the case. Naw, the huge, overwhelming acceptance of “western” music all over the world is obvious. Go to almost any city or town anywhere, and you’ll hear reggae and rap and rock and symphonies and the like. All in equal tempered scales. Bob Marley is a star in every country I’ve ever been in. And western instruments, from guitars and pianos to trumpets and saxophones, are found in cities and villages and hamlets worldwide. How do I know? Because I’ve worked in Africa and Central America and Asia and the Pacific Islands and South America, and taken my guitar with me, and listened to the music wherever I went. So rather than waving your hands and saying “musical traditions across the world continue to use different tunings”, how about you pony up with a) the names and b) the extent or influence and c) the tunings used by those traditions. I’m not saying those places don’t exist, they do. Indian classical music does not use equal temperament, they have their own totally different system which is unlike any western tuning. And I have a lovely flute with a haunting scale that is out of tune with every instrument known, but sounds wonderful on its own. And I’ve seen places where people still light fires with a bow drill … but most of the world uses matches and lighters, and loves reggae and rock and rap. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-music-b-c-instead-of-cb/505986/50 "2009-09-15T23:00:43Z")
> [@intention](#): > > And I’ve seen places where people still light fires with a bow drill … but most of the world uses matches and lighters, and loves reggae and rock and rap. A late response, I know, but quite frankly I don’t think this deserves anything more than returning to an accusation of cultural supremacism. “It _must_ be _better_, because it’s _more widespread_” doesn’t hold water. (Typed while listening to Billie Holiday diverge from equal temperament with a consistency that merits the term ‘system’, even if it doesn’t have a name.) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-music-b-c-instead-of-cb/505986/51 "2009-09-15T23:37:40Z")
> [@intention](#): > > So rather than waving your hands and saying “musical traditions across the world continue to use different tunings”, how about you pony up with a) the names and b) the extent or influence and c) the tunings used by those traditions. Diatonic harmonicas, for one, are generally tuned to Richter tuning, for instance. I would also state that blues (and by extension rock) music strays substantially from standard 12-tone ET (particularly with its use of the ambiguous third that lies somewhere between a minor and major third). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-music-b-c-instead-of-cb/505986.md?page=2)