# In old movies, is "eccentric" a euphemism for "gay"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 29, 2003, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-old-movies-is-eccentric-a-euphemism-for-gay/178210 "2003-05-29T06:04:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![occ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8c91f0/32.png) [@occ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/occ)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-old-movies-is-eccentric-a-euphemism-for-gay/178210/1 "2003-05-29T06:04:42Z")
I was watching “Strangers on a Train” last night, and was reminded of the large numbers of older American movies I’ve seen featuring a character who was described, by himself or others, as an “eccentric”. Now, I’m familiar with the meaning of the word, but it seems that many of these characters’ eccentric signifiers were along the lines of what we commonly think of as gay signifiers. Things like (pardon any stereotyping) a “theatrical” nature, something of an obsession with art, a somewhat effeminite manner of speaking, and (again, these are gay stereotypes, not necessarily reflecting reality) are often very attached to their mothers or other older females. So, that said, when a movie from, say, 1940 has a character in it designated an “eccentric”, do they really mean “this character is gay”? Was it the other way around, that many of the people considered “eccentrics” in that era were actually broadcasting gay signifiers? Or am I just drawing a conclusion based on coincidence? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-old-movies-is-eccentric-a-euphemism-for-gay/178210/2 "2003-05-29T06:32:57Z")
“Eccentric” was definitely used in this sense, just as its synonym, “queer” was. Sorry I can’t provide a link, but I know I’ve come across it in literature: “He’s… …_eccentric._” Originally a very nuanced thing, after much usage it became overtly declarative. > [@](#): > > **queer** > adjective 1 strange, odd, eccentric. 2 suspect; of questionable character. 3 slightly ill; faint. 4 offensive slang (esp. of a man) homosexual. noun offensive slang homosexual. [–Oxford](http://www.askoxford.com/dictionary/queer) ---
**Author:** ![j.c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@j.c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j.c)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-old-movies-is-eccentric-a-euphemism-for-gay/178210/3 "2003-05-29T07:51:26Z")
You really have to look at the whole picture presented in the moving picture. Eccentric is not a code word for gay because it has so many other meanings. Once something becomes a code word, you have to drop the normal use - see the history of queer and gay, which can no longer be sued to mean odd and happy. I believe even **C.K. Dexter Haven** might be described as eccentric in his movie. (But I may be thinking of Cary Grant the dinosaur hunter - in a movie where gay is used as we know it today, and with very clear, visual clues about the meaning intended.) It’s often used for nerds. Bipics of Thomas Edison, for instance, call him eccentric. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-old-movies-is-eccentric-a-euphemism-for-gay/178210/4 "2003-05-29T09:25:16Z")
Im thje Celluloid Closet and other sources I’ve read, “eccentric” was not only code for gay in some movies(The Hays Code didn’t allow such things, especially blatantly), but it was also a term within the culture in some areas of the country. I seem to remember Truman Capote and Quentin Crisp also writing about the euphemism, which would mean at least it was seen in England and the South. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-old-movies-is-eccentric-a-euphemism-for-gay/178210/5 "2003-05-29T09:30:34Z")
**j.c.** , sure, context is important. The OP is asking if there has in past times been a convention to use the word as a euphemism for “homosexual,” not if it that is its unequivocal meaning. > [@](#): > > Once something becomes a code word, you have to drop the normal use - see the history of queer and gay, which can no longer be sued to mean odd and happy. Really? That’s queer, nobody told me. Does this mean that we’re not allowed to use the word “musical”? How about “Aesthetic”? “Artistic”? I’m at a loss to think of a word to replace “sensitive.” What do we call people who favour their left hands now? “Left-handed” is clearly out the door, it had a long run as ‘code’ for ‘homosexual’. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-old-movies-is-eccentric-a-euphemism-for-gay/178210/6 "2003-05-29T09:35:29Z")
How about some concrete examples from 1934-1966 in which “eccentric” was used as a code word for homosexual? Dialogue quotations would help. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-old-movies-is-eccentric-a-euphemism-for-gay/178210/7 "2003-05-29T10:41:00Z")
Really, it’s a pretty common usage. Here are a few examples if you need 'em. These are contemporary-- easier to find than old movie examples. > [@](#): > > **High time for Highsmith** > Late lesbian author Patricia Highsmith continues to be a Hollywood fave. Highsmith died in 1995, but films based on her books … keep on heading to the big screen. Now Highsmith’s first megahit, “Strangers on a Train,” which was made into a film by Alfred Hitchcock back in 1951, is being reconceived by edgy urban director Antoine Fuqua […] David Seltzer has adapted the story about a tennis pro who wants to kill his wife – whom he’s in the process of divorcing – **and a “cultured eccentric” (which sounds pretty queer to Romeo)** who wants to kill his own father. > –[Gay.com entertainment](http://channels.gay.com/entertainment/news/?sernum=300) > [@](#): > > _Otherworld_ Sarah Dreher creates another hilarious thriller featuring Stoner McTavish, her eccentric Aunt Hermione, and her devoted lover Gwen. > Subject: Lesbians – United States – Fiction – Mystery. [–link](http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=1-0934678448-5) > [@](#): > > Our darling heroine [Sandi Toksvig](http://uk.gay.com/headlines/3856) braved the elements on Great Journeys […] She may have looked like Indiana Jones’ eccentric Aunt but her “ridiculously accelerated journey” made for quite a captivating and beguiling hour-long excursion. –[Gay Times](http://www.geocities.com/fatbear1965/gtrev23.html) ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-old-movies-is-eccentric-a-euphemism-for-gay/178210/8 "2003-05-29T11:24:04Z")
Larry, I bow down to thee and thy mighty knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-old-movies-is-eccentric-a-euphemism-for-gay/178210/9 "2003-05-29T11:34:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Larry Mudd \* > \*\* > What do we call people who favour their left hands now? “Left-handed” is clearly out the door, it had a long run as ‘code’ for ‘homosexual’. \*\* When was this long run? Just curious - I’ve never heard left-handed used this way. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-old-movies-is-eccentric-a-euphemism-for-gay/178210/10 "2003-05-29T12:26:28Z")
You might want to read a few books which are ethnographic studies of gay men. One of them that I remember reading as a teenager was simply titled: “Homosexuals”. This covered men from their 20s to their 60s. The terms and their stories were markedly different with people using different terms to refer to their lives. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-old-movies-is-eccentric-a-euphemism-for-gay/178210/11 "2003-05-29T12:50:26Z")
It certainly depends on the context. “Eccentric” was also used to mean “nutty and rich.” See **Our Man Godfrey** or **You Can’t Take it With You** , which featured eccentric families that were clearly heterosexual. In Hitchcock’s “Strangers,” there was also a homosexual subtext that implied Bruno was attracted to Guy (see the tennis audience scene). ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-old-movies-is-eccentric-a-euphemism-for-gay/178210/12 "2003-05-29T13:59:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RealityChuck \* > \*\*It certainly depends on the context. “Eccentric” was also used to mean “nutty and rich.” See **Our Man Godfrey** or **You Can’t Take it With You** , which featured eccentric families that were clearly heterosexual. . . . \*\* Well, _duh_; no one is saying it didn’t also retain its _actual_ usage. “Artistic” and "sensitive’ are the euphemisms that always come to mind in this context, but there are definitely instances where “eccentric” was given the same undertone. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-old-movies-is-eccentric-a-euphemism-for-gay/178210/13 "2003-05-29T14:37:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by j.c. \* > **Once something becomes a code word, you have to drop the normal use** My friend Dorothy is going to be devastated to hear this. And just what _was_ Ronald Reagen trying to tell us with all those red ties? ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-old-movies-is-eccentric-a-euphemism-for-gay/178210/14 "2003-05-29T14:49:39Z")
“And just what was Ronald Reagen trying to tell us with all those red ties?” _What was that girlish laughter just as I walked by? Oh, that was just the fellow in the red necktie!_ —“What, No Women?” (mid-1920s) ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-old-movies-is-eccentric-a-euphemism-for-gay/178210/15 "2003-05-29T17:20:44Z")
**Larry Mudd** , you’ve quoted people’s reviews or descriptions of films, not the films themselves. I am looking for actual dialogue from films 1934-1966 in which the word “eccentric” is used as a euphemism for homosexual. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-old-movies-is-eccentric-a-euphemism-for-gay/178210/16 "2003-05-29T20:55:17Z")
Sorry, **Walloon** , I can’t really provide examples from film dialogue off the top of my head, although I know that they’re out there. Ah well, that’ll give me the incentive to make the pilgrimage to _Videomatica_, Vancouver’s Mecca of classic films. Maybe someone else can jump in with some examples before then. One example of this shaded meaning of ‘eccentric’ that _does_ spring to mind, though, is an episode of the radio program _Richard Diamond, Private Detective_, from the late 1950’s, in which Mr. Diamond’s client, a self-described “eccentric”, needs help because he is being blackmailed for an unspecified indiscretion. I’m ambivalent about this particular episode-- On the one hand, the character is an offensive lampoon-- a lisping, mincing (yes, you can hear him mince), fainting effete, of whom our hardboiled hero is openly contemptuous. On the other hand, when it looks like certain death for Mr. Diamond, the little fellow swoops in like the U.S. Calvalry and plugs his tormenter right between the eyes, earning an invite out for a well-deserved drink. In the wrap-up, Diamond makes some commentary to his gum-chewing secretary about how you can’t judge people based on superficial appearances. On the whole, it feels like the writer (Blake Edwards) was trying to make a point that was undermined quite a bit by the director and the guest star. Forgive me, that was something of a digression, wasn’t it? When I get home, I’ll dig up the episode and provide actual quotes from the dialogue. > [@](#): > > **dantheman** : When was this long run? Just curious - I’ve never heard left-handed used this way. The first time I remember coming across it was in a biography of Evelyn Waugh. (From either his diary or his correspondence, my memory is not clear.) Whenever I heard it used in that context afterwards, I always thought of Evelyn Waugh-- because I had initially assumed it was some bit of personal idiom. It’s still sometimes used that way to a degree today, all though no-doubt with a trace of irony. > [@](#): > > LEFT-HANDED: homosexual; transsexual; queer; left-handed is sometimes used as a euphemism for odd, different, queer, or otherwise not normal, this has even been enshrined in some studies which demonstrated that queer people are more likely to be left-handed, but even more studies have shown that there is no relationship between being gay and being left-handed. –[A Dictionary of Words for Masculine Women](http://www.sexuality.org/l/incoming/f2mwords.html) > [@](#): > > “Left Handed”(an archaic euphemism for “gay”), goes against the run of play by starting loud and getting quiet. –[From this record review](http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/~mazswj/mmrev1.htm) Some people may find it mystifying that there were so many very subtley-shaded euphemisms for homosexual. In times and places where practically _all_ homosexuals were of necessity “closeted”, it was vitally important to have “stealth” signifiers which could be used within the subculture – signifiers that would mean something else entirely to those outside the group. This way, you can make declarations or inquiries in the presence of people you’re unsure of, with minimal risk. Eg; you could tentatively ask a fellow in your club or fraternal lodge something along the lines of “Are you musical?” If the answer is “yes” then the fellow would likely be aware of the dual-meaning, and the conversation could proceed along less-guarded lines. If the answer is “no,” then the fellow would simply perceive the literal meaning of the question, and say something like “I play the piano a little.” This is much less likely to earn the asker a black eye from an unsympathetic soul. The important thing about these “codes” is that they signify something else, something singularly unremarkable, to the people outside the suppressed subculture. Naturally, they have a limited shelf-life, because eventually people pick up on the shaded meanings, and the “codes” enter the popular lexicon and cease to be “codes.” This is what happened to “gay.” If you’ll allow me another long digression, compare the way users of opiates used to communicate amongst themselves in the early twentieth century. Anything even _remotely_ connected to China stood as code for opiates. Users could therefore make subtle inquiries, once they pick up on the idiom of “jive.” People outside the subculture would never pick up on the meaning of Cab Calloway’s _Minnie the Moocher_– “He took her down to Chinatown, and showed her how to kick the gong around.” Combined with other ambiguous phrases and associations, you have a stealth song about heroin-- “He took her to see the Deacon of **Down** , he preached to her that she ought to **slow** down.” “He gave her a townhouse and racing **horses** , each meal she ate was a dozen courses. Had a million dollars in **nickels** and **dimes** , she sat around and counted 'em a million times.” When you are in on the “code” it’s easier to understand why “They took her where they keep the crazies-- now poor Minnie’s kickin’ up them daisies.” Cab Calloway did more than anyone else to “out” the code, (although it was still obscure enough that “Minnie the Moocher” was used for a Betty Boop cartoon!) He was almost explicit in some other songs-- “They sent a hundred thousand hoppies / over to China picking poppies / They’re gonna put them all in one bouquet / For Minnie the Moocher’s wedding day!” _Kickin’ the Gong Around_ contains a line which sounds explicit to our ears: “He was sweatin’, cold and pale, He was lookin’ for his frail, He was broke and **all his junk ran out…** ” It sounds unequivocal, because “junk” has gone through the same transformation that “gay” has – from an oblique code, to a universally acknowledged definition. (People tend to assume that heroin is called ‘junk’ as a synonym for ‘rubbish’, but when they hipsters used it, they were referring to its earlier [definition](http://www.wordsmyth.net/live/home.php?script=search&matchent=junk&matchtype=exact)– “a high-sterned, flat-bottomed boat of Chinese origin, driven by square sails.” What I am trying to emphasize here is that, contrary to the objections that have been raised that “eccentric” can not serve as code for “homosexual” because it has a common meaning totally unrelated to sexuality, it was useful as a code _because_ it would generally be taken mean something else entirely. If it was unambiguous, it wouldn’t serve as a “code” at all. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-old-movies-is-eccentric-a-euphemism-for-gay/178210/17 "2003-05-29T21:04:32Z")
Fascinating. I’ve been lefthanded a long time now, and never heard it that way. Guess people in my neck don’t read Waugh. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Thylacine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thylacine/32/1143_2.png) [@Thylacine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thylacine)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-old-movies-is-eccentric-a-euphemism-for-gay/178210/18 "2003-05-30T00:48:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Larry Mudd \* > \*\* > Otherworld Sarah Dreher creates another hilarious thriller featuring Stoner McTavish, her eccentric Aunt Hermione, and her devoted lover Gwen. > \*\* Stoner McTavish is a much beloved and out lesbian travel agent / amateur detective who lives with her Aunt Hermione who is a chrome loving medium - eccentric in the nutter sense. Gwen is Stoner’s lover. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-old-movies-is-eccentric-a-euphemism-for-gay/178210/19 "2003-05-30T04:12:27Z")
From the funniest movie ever made, **Withnail & I** (1986, but set in 1969 London): [The thespians Withnail and Marwood at Montague Withnail’s (the corpulent uncle of the young Withnail) London house. The uncle ushers them to the over-the-top campily appointed drawing room, and sets about to serve them sherry.] Montague Withnail (the uncle): Do you like vegetables? [pause] I’ve always been fond of root crops, but I only started to grow last summer. [Rather salaciously] I happen to think the cauliflower more beautiful than the rose… Withnail (the nephew): [While raising glass of sherry] Chin, chin! MW: [To Peter] Do you grow…? Withnail: [Rescuing his friend] Geraniums! MW: Uf! The little traitors… I think the carrot infinitely more fascinating than the geranium. [sips sherry] Umm! The carrot has mystery; flowers are essentially tarts, prostitutes for the bees. [Picks up a carrot in a silver planter & carries it to the lads.] There is, you’ll agree, a certain _je nais ca quoi_, um, so very special, about a firm, young carrot. Mm! Excuse me… [Calling out while leaving the room] Do help yourselves to another drink! [Withnail, his nephew, frenziedly grabs the bottle of sherry and starts chugging directly from the bottle.] Peter Marwood (“I”): [Leaning closer to his friend, and whispering conspiratorially] The man’s _mad!_ Withnail (the nephew): [In similar stage whispering] **Eccentric!** PM: [sotto voce] Not eccentric; insane! Not only that, he’s a raving homosexual! [Withnail finishes chugging the sherry, and hastily puts it back on the serving table, as the uncle’s cat, who has just been kicked in an adjacent room, shrieks and scrambles to a hiding spot in the drawing room. The uncle shortly follows…] _You’ll have to take my word for it, that the scene continues to build, becoming still funnier, what with desperate Withnail bullshitting his wealthy uncle about their prospects for landing some acting jobs, and Uncle Monty growing sentimental over his Oxford salad days of youth, and breaking into some extemp Hamlet, but I’m too tired and lazy to continue with this transcription._