# In or at a place - Indian English Grammar Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 21, 2004, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-or-at-a-place-indian-english-grammar-question/230338 "2004-02-21T05:45:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![quicken78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/919ad9/32.png) [@quicken78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quicken78)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-or-at-a-place-indian-english-grammar-question/230338/1 "2004-02-21T05:45:36Z")
I am trying to get to the bottom of why people in India seem to confuse ‘in’ or ‘at’ a city/country. eg. ‘Things to be discussed at Korea’ and not ‘Things to be discussed in Korea’ What is the correct grammatical construction? One might be tempted to put this down to bad grammar, but my time in India has taught me that it is not so much bad grammar as old grammar. As a slight aside, I discovered the reason why people in India speak such antiquated English. The culprit is a horrible book called Wrenn & Martin. It was first published in something like 1926 and has been periodically updated since then but the general content remains the same. It uses expressions like: ‘Queen Victoria was the greatest Empress the world has ever seen’ as examples for denoting different parts of speech in a sentence. This book is still considered to be the gospel text book on English grammar in India. Unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-or-at-a-place-indian-english-grammar-question/230338/2 "2004-02-22T01:58:52Z")
I’d say “in” but “at” is perfectly acceptable. What’s wrong with Empress? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-or-at-a-place-indian-english-grammar-question/230338/3 "2004-02-22T15:34:09Z")
Someone who knows a lot more about Indian languages than I do (which is virtually nothing) can confirm this, but possibly the native language of these speakers uses the same word to mean both “at” and “in.” IOW, for the same reason that English speakers learning Spanish have a hell of a time with _por_ and _para_. **Balthisar** , I would imagine the OP’s point had to do with the political connotations of the sentence rather than the use of the word “Empress”. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-or-at-a-place-indian-english-grammar-question/230338/4 "2004-02-22T17:44:00Z")
Prepositions in general are a problem for ESL students. Why do English speakers typically say “when I was in Korea” instead of “when I was at Korea”? Why do we say “He was happy about his promotion” but not “She was impressed about the painting” or “I am surprised about his rudeness”? Usage seems to be random, so it no surprise that new speakers mix their prepositions. ---
**Author:** ![xash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c6cbf5/32.png) [@xash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xash)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-or-at-a-place-indian-english-grammar-question/230338/5 "2004-02-22T17:47:09Z")
“in” would be correct in this case. “in” a city/country, “at” a specific location. Although “at” might be considered correct depending on the context of a given sentence, e.g. “The plane will be taking off from Bombay at 0100hrs and landing at London the next day at 1500hrs” While many Indians do know English really well, not all have perfect grammar. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-or-at-a-place-indian-english-grammar-question/230338/6 "2004-02-22T17:54:31Z")
Guilty party (Indian, W&M on my shelf _at_ home) reporting… > [@quicken78](#): > > ‘Things to be discussed at Korea’ > > and not > > ‘Things to be discussed in Korea’ Depends on function and scope of the location. If you want precision of location, then I use ‘at’ (at the center of the circle). If the aspect of subregions is to be implicitly acknowledged, if not specified, then I use ‘in’ (in the circle). > [@](#): > > What is the correct grammatical construction? The one which gains wide acceptance. > [@](#): > > As a slight aside, I discovered the reason why people in India speak such antiquated English. The culprit is a horrible book called Wrenn & Martin. It was first published in something like 1926 and has been periodically updated since then but the general content remains the same. BAN THIS HORROR OF A BOOK!!! NOW !!! > [@](#): > > It uses expressions like: ‘Queen Victoria was the greatest Empress the world has ever seen’ as examples for denoting different parts of speech in a sentence. This book is still considered to be the gospel text book on English grammar in India. Forgive my antiquated English, but what’s wrong with that sentence? ---
**Author:** ![DarrenS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@DarrenS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarrenS)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-or-at-a-place-indian-english-grammar-question/230338/7 "2004-02-22T17:59:18Z")
I think the issue with “Empress” is not grammatical, but cultural: it harkens back to an era of shameful colonialism. The fact that it was used as an example of model grammar shows how deeply embedded the notion was. Regarding Indian English - why is it that speakers of same (!) are so enamored with using “same” all over the place? I’m guessing there must be a word in Hindi that’s used a lot, whose translation is roughly the pronoun “same”. For example, I often get business emails like, “Please review document attached and I will forward same to Bob…” ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-or-at-a-place-indian-english-grammar-question/230338/8 "2004-02-22T18:18:57Z")
“Same” isn’t Indian English, it’s business English. ---
**Author:** ![DarrenS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@DarrenS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarrenS)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-or-at-a-place-indian-english-grammar-question/230338/9 "2004-02-22T19:42:46Z")
**ruadh** - not in the way Indian English speakers use it. Here’s an example from a random email in my inbox: > [@](#): > > Please find attached a presentation as discussion material for tomorrow morning’s meeting (in any case, we will be carrying copies of the same) It’s a sort of “over-correctness” - a native English speaker would just say “it”, even in a business correspondence. I’m betting there’s some pronoun in Hindi that translates to “same”, that is used much more frequently in Hindi than in English. Any Hindi speakers out there? By the way: Yes, I know not all Indians have Hindi as their native language, and that there are close to 1000 (?) different languages/dialects in India. However, I’m led to believe that along with English, Hindi is the lingua franca of India. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-or-at-a-place-indian-english-grammar-question/230338/10 "2004-02-22T19:45:13Z")
The English preposition _at_ is an odd beast; it usually has no exact equivalent in other languages. The words used to translate _at_ in a given language may be different words depending on the context. One oddity of Hindi-influenced English is when you sit down to dinner. Hindi would say _mej par baiTh_. Here _mej_=‘table’ and _baiTh_=‘sit’. But the postposition _par_ used to indicate location usually (usually, but not always) corresponds to English _on_. So instead of saying “Sit **at** the table” you will often hear Hindi speakers saying “Sit **on** the table.” Hilarity ensues. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-or-at-a-place-indian-english-grammar-question/230338/11 "2004-02-22T19:55:57Z")
> [@DarrenS](#): > > **ruadh** - not in the way Indian English speakers use it. Here’s an example from a random email in my inbox: Your example differs from what I have encountered in professional correspondence from native English speakers only in the fact that it says “_the_ same” rather than just “same”. You may not ever have encountered it before, but I can assure you it is nothing unusual. I even use it myself from time to time. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-or-at-a-place-indian-english-grammar-question/230338/12 "2004-02-22T20:09:42Z")
Prepositions are one of the things that translates very poorly between languages. Think French: “Je vais **au** Portugal” but “Je vais **en** France” - two countries, two different prepositions (in this case because Portugal is a masculine noun and France is feminine). While ones native language may seem entirely logical in its use of prepositions, in reality it’s extremely arbitrary. Indian English, however, has existed among a large body of speakers for quite a long period of time. Many Indians learn English from childhood, and it’s not really accurate to say that they’re speaking English incorrectly so much as that they’re speaking a unique Indian dialect, which is no doubt heavily influenced by Hindi (and possibly by poorly-written textbooks) - but such influences are historical factors that led to the dialect spoken now, which according to my knowledge is quite regular. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-or-at-a-place-indian-english-grammar-question/230338/13 "2004-02-22T23:45:39Z")
> [@quicken78](#): > > I am trying to get to the bottom of why people in India seem to confuse ‘in’ or ‘at’ a city/country. > > eg. > > ‘Things to be discussed at Korea’ > > and not > > ‘Things to be discussed in Korea’ I can see another legitimate reason for “things to be discussed at Korea” - I would assume “Korea” was shorthand for something like “the next meeting of our study group, which will take place in Korea”, “Korea” being in the mind of the speaker at that moment not a country but an event. In Swedish you say “on” instead of “in” for countries that are islands (på Irland, rather than i Irland). I think in old fashioned English you might have heard “on Malta/Cyprus/Bermuda/Tahiti/etc.” rather than “in”. ---
**Author:** ![quicken78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/919ad9/32.png) [@quicken78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quicken78)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-or-at-a-place-indian-english-grammar-question/230338/14 "2004-02-23T13:38:09Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > “Same” isn’t Indian English, it’s business English. It’s certainly not business English in England / United States. Until I came to India, I had never heard sentences containing “some such” information as: “I hope that you will be able to do the needful and intimate me your understanding of the matter. Please revert to me on the same”… The first time I saw this, I was actually shocked. I thought that the guy was trying to be intimate with me. [For those of you who are confused, this is the standard ending to business emails in India] [QUOTE=ruadh] Your example differs from what I have encountered in professional correspondence from native English speakers only in the fact that it says “the same” rather than just “same”. You may not ever have encountered it before, but I can assure you it is nothing unusual. I even use it myself from time to time. [QUOTE] Are you suggesting: “Please find attached a presentation as discussion material for tomorrow morning’s meeting (in any case, we will be carrying copies of same)” WAG - You aren’t a native English speaker? Again, I have NEVER seen ‘the same’ or ‘same’ used by native English speakers in this context. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-or-at-a-place-indian-english-grammar-question/230338/15 "2004-02-23T13:42:29Z")
> [@quicken78](#): > > As a slight aside, I discovered the reason why people in India speak such antiquated English. The culprit is a horrible book called Wrenn & Martin. It was first published in something like 1926 and has been periodically updated since then but the general content remains the same. Similarly, a friend of mine from the English-speaking community in Sri Lanka says things like “jjimm, old chap, do you have the hour on your timepiece?” and “You are indeed a most clumsy bastard”. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-or-at-a-place-indian-english-grammar-question/230338/16 "2004-02-23T13:45:39Z")
> [@quicken78](#): > > Are you suggesting: “Please find attached a presentation as discussion material for tomorrow morning’s meeting (in any case, we will be carrying copies of same)” > > WAG - You aren’t a native English speaker? Again, I have NEVER seen ‘the same’ or ‘same’ used by native English speakers in this context. I see this construction all the time, in UK and Ireland business correspondence mostly. And **ruadh** speaks her native tongue English perfectly well. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-or-at-a-place-indian-english-grammar-question/230338/17 "2004-02-23T13:45:45Z")
> [@quicken78](#): > > It’s certainly not business English in England / United States. … WAG - You aren’t a native English speaker? Again, I have NEVER seen ‘the same’ or ‘same’ used by native English speakers in this context. Yes, I am and I have seen it in business correspondence both in the US and Ireland… and NOT from Indians. Give me some time and I’ll dig up some examples. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-or-at-a-place-indian-english-grammar-question/230338/18 "2004-02-23T14:01:49Z")
Better still, here’s the entry from the [OED online dictionary](http://dictionary.oed.com/) (you’ll have to take my word for it unless you want to pay the registration fee): > [@](#): > > **same, a. _(pron., adv.)_** > … > \*\*4. a. _the same, that_ \*\*(or _ **this** _) _ **same** _: the aforesaid person or thing. Often merely the equivalent of a personal pronoun; he, she, it, they. Now rare in literary use; still common in legal documents; also (with reference to things) in commercial language (where _the_ is sometimes omitted). Examples date between 1362 and 1973 and come from England, New Zealand and the US. ---
**Author:** ![quicken78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/919ad9/32.png) [@quicken78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quicken78)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-or-at-a-place-indian-english-grammar-question/230338/19 "2004-02-23T14:28:51Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Better still, here’s the entry from the [OED online dictionary](http://dictionary.oed.com/) (you’ll have to take my word for it unless you want to pay the registration fee): > > Examples date between 1362 and 1973 and come from England, New Zealand and the US. Okay. I am not saying that it isn’t correct English but old/outdated English. My OP is partly based on this entire premise. But fair enough that it is ‘business English’. I still don’t understand the difference between the ‘in or at’ question. And BTW for you posters who were perplexed by my shock at the Empress sentence,\*\* DarrenS \*\* was right. It is not the grammar that is disturbing, but the content. If this was accidentally put into a modern UK English grammar book, a minister or two would probably lose their job. ---
**Author:** ![quicken78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/919ad9/32.png) [@quicken78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quicken78)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-or-at-a-place-indian-english-grammar-question/230338/20 "2004-02-23T14:40:43Z")
> [@xash](#): > > “in” would be correct in this case. “in” a city/country, “at” a specific location. > > Although “at” might be considered correct depending on the context of a given sentence, e.g. “The plane will be taking off from Bombay at 0100hrs and landing at London the next day at 1500hrs” > > While many Indians do know English really well, not all have perfect grammar. Xash - I know you are a Mod an’ all but I think that your example is incorrect. If I was reviewing a document that used that construction, I would certainly change it. However, as this thread has shown, I am not always right. Regardless, I don’t think that **at** is actually _wrong_. I am just trying to figure out why **at Bangalore** or **at Korea** is considered correct in India (to the point where people will actively change it from **in Bangalore** or **in Korea**. Some of these threads go some way to explaining this. Perhaps I should rephrase the question - has there ever been a time when use of ‘at’ a given city/country was used in ‘proper’ English? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-or-at-a-place-indian-english-grammar-question/230338.md?page=2)