# "In Order To Create A More Perfect Union..." **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2001, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-order-to-create-a-more-perfect-union/69582 "2001-06-21T07:21:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Homer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df788c/32.png) [@Homer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homer)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-order-to-create-a-more-perfect-union/69582/1 "2001-06-21T07:21:29Z")
\*[Begin Section 1. This thread is a intellectual exercise for myself. Please critiqe the postulates below for logical errors and gaps. After a short critique of the postulates, I will post my derivatives and expositions of the postulates. After receiving critiques on such, I will post my exposition on my ideas to correct the problem outlaid in my Truth. Thank you for your cooperation and I hope this thread will be intellectually stimulating for all involved.]\* Postulate 1: The power of a fair and just Government can only derive from the will of the People to be governed. Postulate 2: The exercise of power by a fair and just Government must be of, by, and for the People. Postulate 3: The purpose of a fair and just Government is to protect and defend the People who have empowered the Government without restricting their personal liberties or removing from them or otherwise restricting the unalienable rights of the People who have empowered the Government. Postulate 4: The Government of the United States is founded on the principles of the Constitution of the United States of America. Postulate 5: The Constitution of the United States of America is a fair and just document designed to empower a fair and just Government that acts in accordance with Postulates 1, 2, and 3. Postulate 6: The will of the Businesses have usurped the power of the Government from the People of the United States of America. Postulate 7: The Government of the United States of America has distanced itself from the principles of the Constitution of the United States of America by disregarding the will of and protection of the People of the United States of America in the creation of it’s laws and regulations and by restricting the unalienable rights and liberties of the People of the United States of America in it’s creation of laws and regulations. Postulate 8: The will of Business is self-serving in nature and therefore disregards the will of the People in pursuit of revenue. Postulate 9: A Government that no longer adheres to the principles on which it was founded is no longer directed by the will of the People. Postulate 10: A Government that does not follow the will of the People is not a fair and just government. Postulate 11: A Government that is not fair and just does not protect the People that empowered the Government. Truth: Therefore, the formation of a new Government, the radical reformation of the current Government, or the reestablishment of the original Constitutional Government is imperative to restore the will of the People to its rightful position and ensure protection for the People that empower the Government. [Thus ends section 1. –Tim] ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-order-to-create-a-more-perfect-union/69582/2 "2001-06-21T11:42:04Z")
Hmmm. 1, 2, 4, 5, 8, 9, 10, and 11 are pretty solid. About those other ones though… 3: This is a nice ideal, but in reality it is impossible to have a government without restricting people’s rights to some degree. In effect, we trade away a certain amount of freedom in exchange for peace and stability. The question of where freedom ends is a very large and complex one, and the purpose of a democracy is to allow the people to help decide where this boundary lies. I would reword 3 thus: The purpose of a fair and just Government is to protect and defend the People who have empowered the Government without unduly restricting their personal rights or liberties. 6: I agree that the business sector wields too much power in government, but to say it usurps all power from the people goes too far. People still have a voice, it’s just that we too often fail to speak at the ballot box. 7: In what manner has the government failed to follow the will of the people, or to protect the people? I cannot agree or disagree with this statement if I do not know what exactly you are referring to. As for the restriction of rights, I have addressed this already. Truth: “Thesis” is a better term, as this is not a statement of fact but an opinion with some evidence behind it. I propose that the problem with government is not in its basic structure or its employees, including elected officers from the President down. Rather the problem is that the people consistently fail to adequately express their will. [This website](http://www.fairvote.org/turnout/) has some statistics on voter turnout from 1924 to 2000. National turnouts range from 48.9% in '24 to 62.8% in '60, while last year’s was 51.0%. Here in California, the largest state by population, the turnout last year was only 44.0%, ranking 46th out of 50 states plus Washington, D.C. Another table shows average turnouts over the past 10 years for 34 countries in Europe, North, Central, and South America, plus Thailand. The United States ranks 33rd, with an average turnout of 45%. The failure of the American people to participate in government is simply atrocious. There cannot truly be government by the people if the people insist on avoiding their responsibility to make themselves heard. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-order-to-create-a-more-perfect-union/69582/3 "2001-06-21T12:56:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer \* > \*\* > > Postulate 1: The power of a fair and just Government can only derive from the will of the People to be governed.\*\* > > Fairness and justice are not necessarily correlated with the system being based on the will of the people. It is philosophically coherent to propose a theocracy that delivers fairness and justice (toa ll citizens, not just the powerful) without this being based on the will of the people. It is also philosophically coherent to propose a governement based on the will of the people that is neither fair nor just (to the minority or minorities). Off course, in the end, it depends on who decides on the criteria for ‘fairness’, ‘justice’ and 'will of the people. In post colonial America, great claims were made for fairness and justice (I believe a Mr Jefferson had a lot to say about this) but slaves counted only 3/5 in population and had few civil rights; the unpropertied in many states were also unable to vote, nor were women with property, nor were slaves. Hardly fair, just, or following the ‘will of the people’; with the caveat that it was fair, just and willed by the white, male, propertied class. > > **Postulate 2: The exercise of power by a fair and just Government must be of, by, and for the People.** > > This depends on whether the will of the people is defined by mere assent given by lack of revolt, or defined in a legalistic way (the will of the people as determined through a byzantine and unusual electoral system) or defined as the majority ruling over every single decision. Most states are governed by an amalgam of the first two systems. The last system, which may seem the fairest and most just, would often result in unfairness and unjustness for unpopular minorities. > > \*\*Postulate 3: The purpose of a fair and just Government is to protect and defend the People who have empowered the Government without restricting their personal liberties or removing from them or otherwise restricting the unalienable rights of the People who have empowered the Government. \*\* > > The purpose of most governments is, in reality, to maintain the status quo and thus the currently powerful. The concept of unalienable rights is very eighteenth century (as is much US common-sense political theory, because of the fixation on an historic document. If ‘rights’ do in fact exist, they are culturally and temporally determined and cannot therefore be ‘unalienable’. As I have noted elsewhere, were the US Constitution being drafted today by the prominent citizens of the country with the aim of protecting current best practice in Human Rights (and as ahead of its time as the founding fathers were then) it would be a very different document, and probably not in accord with the wish of the general population (as was the case when the Constitution was proposed and accepted by assent). > > **Postulate 4: The Government of the United States is founded on the principles of the Constitution of the United States of America.** > > The history of ideas in the US shows that the Governemnt of the United States has always been based on how much the basic documents can be bent, changed, ignored or cleverly contravened. In each age, the power elite have used every trick imaginable to interpret the Constitution in their own interests. > > \*\*Postulate 5: The Constitution of the United States of America is a fair and just document designed to empower a fair and just Government that acts in accordance with Postulates 1, 2, and 3. \*\* > > The Constitution of the United States of America is an eighteenth century statement of the best way to govern white males with property in a rationalistic and gentlemanly manner. Over the years it has been changed, amended and reinterpreted in order to meet the needs of the power elite of that age. > > **Postulate 6: The will of the Businesses have usurped the power of the Government from the People of the United States of America.** > > Business happens to be the current power elite > > **Postulate 7: The Government of the United States of America has distanced itself from the principles of the Constitution of the United States of America by disregarding the will of and protection of the People of the United States of America in the creation of it’s laws and regulations and by restricting the unalienable rights and liberties of the People of the United States of America in it’s creation of laws and regulations.** > > No change there then! > > **Postulate 8: The will of Business is self-serving in nature and therefore disregards the will of the People in pursuit of revenue.** > > Adam Smith was pretty certain that this was a good idea. You will find Adam Smith’s theories in the same section of the history of ideas that you will also find many of the other heroes of the founding fathers. Unfortunately, Adam Smith is more in tune with the Constitution than the Constitution is with concepts of modern democracy. Times change. > > **Postulate 9: A Government that no longer adheres to the principles on which it was founded is no longer directed by the will of the People.** > > It never was directed by the will of the people (see above). It was directed by an elite in each age who managed to gain the passive assent of the people. > > **Postulate 10: A Government that does not follow the will of the People is not a fair and just government.** > > See above on Theocracies. Fairness and Justice are not necessarily founded on the will of the people. > > **Postulate 11: A Government that is not fair and just does not protect the People that empowered the Government.** > > A government that is not fair and just may, nevertheless, protect the people that empowered it if they give their craven passive assent > > **Truth: Therefore, the formation of a new Government, the radical reformation of the current Government, or the reestablishment of the original Constitutional Government is imperative to restore the will of the People to its rightful position and ensure protection for the People that empower the Government.** > > Truth: Every government is dependent on the failure of the people to overthrow it; this is usually achieved by gaining passive assent. Eighteenth century ideas are of great interest, but of no importance. If the people are happy with what they have (or at least, not so unhappy that they wish to overthrow it) then they will have given assent. The only way that change will occur will be for a powerful and motivated group from outside the current elite (or who have separated themselves from that elite) to work towards peaceful or violent overthrow of the system of government. Of course, they’re going to have be pretty powerful to overcom the current elite, big business. IMHO we are stuck with Big Business until the eco-system is so damged that people revolt against it and replace it with another form of autocracy (which again IMHO) is the only system in reality that we have ever had anywhere- autocracy based on passive assent. > > However, BTW, I concur with Winston Churchill who described Democracy as the worst form of government (saving all others) ;). > \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Protesilaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Protesilaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Protesilaus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-order-to-create-a-more-perfect-union/69582/4 "2001-06-21T22:35:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer \* > **Postulate 1: The power of a fair and just Government can only derive from the will of the People to be governed.** True, although this doesn’t restrict the form that government takes. The people could choose to give complete control to a single individual for life and that wouldn’t prevent that from being a fair and just government. It must also be noted that a government derived from the will of the people is not necessarily fair and just, nor is democracy necessarily fair and just. Imagine a small, fairly isolated community which consisted of mostly Neo-Nazis and other assorted white supremacists. Their government would almost certainly not be fair or just. > [@](#): > > **Postulate 2: The exercise of power by a fair and just Government must be of, by, and for the People.** For I agree with, but not necessarily of or by. See my point in 1 regarding the theoretical possibility of a fair, just dictator for life. I think the US is much too large for the FJDfL method to work, but in some situations it would be possible. > [@](#): > > **Postulate 3: The purpose of a fair and just Government is to protect and defend the People who have empowered the Government without restricting their personal liberties or removing from them or otherwise restricting the unalienable rights of the People who have empowered the Government.** I agree with **sturmhauke’s** assessment of this. > [@](#): > > **Postulate 4: The Government of the United States is founded on the principles of the Constitution of the United States of America.** I agree that the US government is based on the basic principles of the Constitution as interpreted by the leaders of the time. The Founding Fathers were unfortunately vague on some points, notably the 2nd Amendment. > [@](#): > > \*\*Postulate 5: The Constitution of the United States of America is a fair and just document designed to empower a fair and just Government that acts in accordance with Postulates 1, 2, and 3. \*\* The Constitution as originally written was pretty fair and just, but it left out some things which we have since corrected, the most notable being the abolition of slavery. If you recall, the original document forbid the government from making any laws to abolish slavery until 1808 (Article 1, Section 9, Clause 1) and required slaves that escaped into free states to be returned to their masters (Article 4, Section 2, Clause 3). I also think that the direct election of senators is more fair than the original procedure. > [@](#): > > **Postulate 6: The will of the Businesses have usurped the power of the Government from the People of the United States of America.** I wouldn’t say usurped, it only seems that way because many people don’t really care about their government. Lots of eligible voters do not vote, and a significant number of others who do make choices based on the politicians’ ads (which are funded by and large by large businesses, which is why it seems businesses are taking over) or voting straight party line. The reason businesses are influencing politicians is because politicians spend so much on ads, because, unfortunately, ads work. If the people were better educated/less apathetic (and I think the former would cause the latter), corporate money wouldn’t be so important to politicians. > [@](#): > > **Postulate 7: The Government of the United States of America has distanced itself from the principles of the Constitution of the United States of America by disregarding the will of and protection of the People of the United States of America in the creation of it’s laws and regulations and by restricting the unalienable rights and liberties of the People of the United States of America in it’s creation of laws and regulations.** I will once again echo **sturmhauke** on this point. Clarification would be valuable to discuss this further. > [@](#): > > **Postulate 8: The will of Business is self-serving in nature and therefore disregards the will of the People in pursuit of revenue.** True, although it should be noted that if you disregard the will of the people too much, you won’t have any revenue to speak of. > [@](#): > > **Postulate 9: A Government that no longer adheres to the principles on which it was founded is no longer directed by the will of the People.** Not so, it just means that the will of the current people is different than the will of the people who lived at the time of the government’s founding. > [@](#): > > **Postulate 10: A Government that does not follow the will of the People is not a fair and just government.** Again, this is not necessarily true. A government which allowed an overwhelming majority to prey on a minority would not be fair or just, but it would be what the people wanted. The government of, for example, South Carolina from 1776 to the abolishment of slavery was certainly neither fair nor just. Allowing slavery was the will of the people, though. > [@](#): > > **Postulate 11: A Government that is not fair and just does not protect the People that empowered the Government.** A unfair, unjust government can still protect the people, or at least the great majority of the people. As an example, an unfair and unjust government might protect its citizens from AIDS in the following manner. (Note: The following italicized section does not reflect my opinion on how the US government or any other government should deal with AIDS and is simply intended to show how an unjust government might choose to deal with the situation. Thank you.) _“All persons currently within the boundaries of the country will be compelled to submit to blood testing for the purposes of diagnosing HIV/AIDS. All persons found to be positive or attempting to evade testing will be, after retesting to prevent false positive diagnoses, forcibly expelled from the country. All persons wishing to enter the country will submit to blood testing and be diagnosed negative before being allowed entry. To prevent problems arising from false negative diagnoses and infections that have not yet manifested, such testing will continue once a month for three years.”_ Such a policy would be incredibly unfair, but it would protect the great majority of the population not infected. (Once again, the preceding italicized section does not reflect my opinion on how the US government or any other government should deal with AIDS and is simply intended to show how an unjust government might choose to deal with the situation.) > [@](#): > > \*\*Truth: Therefore, the formation of a new Government, the radical reformation of the current Government, or the reestablishment of the original Constitutional Government is imperative to restore the will of the People to its rightful position and ensure protection for the People that empower the Government. > \*\* If enough people felt that a revolution was necessary, there would be a revolution. As it is, only a small number of people feel that way. If such a revolution was attempted by the small number of people who felt this way, it would actually be _against_ the will of the people, not for it. Furthermore, a return of our government to its 1790s state (I’m assuming you want to keep the Bill of Rights around) would mean getting rid of many important amendments. Which ones do you think we could/should do without? ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-order-to-create-a-more-perfect-union/69582/5 "2001-06-21T23:35:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer \* > \*\* > > Postulate 1: The power of a fair and just Government can only derive from the will of the People to be governed. > \*\* Any government, regardless of where it derives it’s power, can potentially govern in a way that is fair and just. In practice, only governments that derive their power from the consent of the governed in some fashion actually do, though it is important to note that this is far from a guarantee. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer \* > \*\* > Postulate 2: The exercise of power by a fair and just Government must be of, by, and for the People. > \*\* See my response to #1. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer \* > \*\* > Postulate 3: The purpose of a fair and just Government is to protect and defend the People who have empowered the Government without restricting their personal liberties or removing from them or otherwise restricting the unalienable rights of the People who have empowered the Government. > \*\* No. The purpose of a fair and just governmet is to protect the _liberties_ of the people, a subtle but important difference. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer \* > \*\* > Postulate 4: The Government of the United States is founded on the principles of the Constitution of the United States of America. > \*\* Obviously. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer \* > \*\* > Postulate 5: The Constitution of the United States of America is a fair and just document designed to empower a fair and just Government that acts in accordance with Postulates 1, 2, and 3. > \*\* This is a matter of opinion…it really depends on what your definitions of “fair” and “just” are. I personally favor the American Constitution. I don’t think it is perfect, but it is better than any other. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer \* > \*\* > Postulate 6: The will of the Businesses have usurped the power of the Government from the People of the United States of America. > \*\* This is too vague to comment on. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer \* > \*\* > Postulate 7: The Government of the United States of America has distanced itself from the principles of the Constitution of the United States of America by disregarding the will of and protection of the People of the United States of America in the creation of it’s laws and regulations and by restricting the unalienable rights and liberties of the People of the United States of America in it’s creation of laws and regulations. > \*\* I agree with “The Government…has distanced itself from the principles of the Constitution…” but not “…by disregarding the will of and protection of the People”. There is nothing in the constitution that requires elected officials to adhere to “the will of the People”. As for protection, see my answer to #3. I **do** agree with “by restricting the unalienable rights and liberties of the People”. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer \* > \*\* > Postulate 8: The will of Business is self-serving in nature and therefore disregards the will of the People in pursuit of revenue. > \*\* True. Understand that I do not think this is a bad thing. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer \* > \*\* > Postulate 9: A Government that no longer adheres to the principles on which it was founded is no longer directed by the will of the People. > \*\* I assume you mean the government of the US, in which case I don’t follow the logic here. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer \* > \*\* > Postulate 10: A Government that does not follow the will of the People is not a fair and just government. > \*\* Depends on your definition of “fair and just”. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer \* > \*\* > Postulate 11: A Government that is not fair and just does not protect the People that empowered the Government. > \*\* See above. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer \* > \*\* > Truth: Therefore, the formation of a new Government, the radical reformation of the current Government, or the reestablishment of the original Constitutional Government is imperative to restore the will of the People to its rightful position and ensure protection for the People that empower the Government. > \*\* What is the “rightful position” of the “will of the People”? ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-order-to-create-a-more-perfect-union/69582/6 "2001-06-25T02:20:23Z")
Nice post, **Pjen**. You have your email hidden or I wouldn’t post just to admire your discerning wisdom. I hope you don’t mind if I snag this quote for a sig line: _Truth: Every government is dependent on the failure of the people to overthrow it; this is usually achieved by gaining passive assent._ I will give credit where it is due, of course. ---
**Author:** ![JonScribe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3be4f8/32.png) [@JonScribe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonScribe)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-order-to-create-a-more-perfect-union/69582/7 "2001-06-25T05:17:51Z")
Postulate 1: God is love. Postulate 2: Love is blind. Postulate 3: Ray Charles is blind. Truth: Ray Charles is God. Sorry, couldn’t resist. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-order-to-create-a-more-perfect-union/69582/8 "2001-06-25T06:41:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 2sense \* > \*\*Nice post, **Pjen**. > You have your email hidden or I wouldn’t post just to admire your discerning wisdom. I hope you don’t mind if I snag this quote for a sig line: > > _Truth: Every government is dependent on the failure of the people to overthrow it; this is usually achieved by gaining passive assent._ > > I will give credit where it is due, of course. \*\* No Problem! ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-order-to-create-a-more-perfect-union/69582/9 "2001-06-25T19:21:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer \* > Postulate 6: The will of the Businesses have usurped the power of the Government from the People of the United States of America. I must take issue with Postulate #6. This may be a pet peeve of mine, but I believe that ‘Business’ and ‘People’ are one in the same. Who owns businesses? People. Who runs businesses? People. Who are the business’ customers? People. To characterize ‘Business’ as a nameless, faceless, malevolent entity, denies the essential humanity of business. They are not our enemy, for we are one in the same. Even huge corporations are, in the end, answerable to individual people, both from an ownership side, and a customer side. Businesses are keenly aware of this and are more responsive to the people they serve than any government in history. They respond to our wants and desires as consumers, and they respond to our financial needs as owners. Businesses look out for our interests when they look out for ‘their’ interests. We own them, work for them, and buy from them, things that are good for business are usually good for us too. I am not going to say that _everything_ businesses want is automatically right, but I disagree that they can usurp our power, because _we_ control _them_.