# In other First World countries, do police have the same issues as American police (better explained in OP) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 23, 2025, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-other-first-world-countries-do-police-have-the-same-issues-as-american-police-better-explained-in-op/1021227 "2025-07-23T16:22:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2025, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-other-first-world-countries-do-police-have-the-same-issues-as-american-police-better-explained-in-op/1021227/1 "2025-07-23T16:22:46Z")
I’m trying not to poison the well here before the discussion starts, but I think that all Americans can agree, in the abstract, that American police kill people more often than they probably should, minorities in particular. They also tend to harass minorities more than they should. They have less training than most other First World police, they’re armed and oft trigger happy. And if YouTube is any indication, they regard Constitutional rights as an inconvenience (watch them flip out whenever someone invokes their right to remain silent). Obviously outside of the US things like the First and Fifth Amendments aren’t things – by which I mean, they’re codified differently but they still exist. Do your cops routinely violate those rights, like demanding entry without a warrant, demanding you answer questions even though you have the right not to, etc. Do police departments routinely investigate themselves when there are accusations of wrongdoing (and usually find they did nothing wrong), like they do here, or do you have outside agencies investiage police complaints? Do your courts shield officers from accountability (see: qualified immunity) routinely. Do your police departments get angry and butthurt when they’re called out publicly and/or when people complain? Basically, how are your cops? ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2025, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-other-first-world-countries-do-police-have-the-same-issues-as-american-police-better-explained-in-op/1021227/2 "2025-07-23T16:33:43Z")
Also, **UK TV License Inspectors** : I’ve seen plenty of videos of people telling TV license inspectors go hit the bricks. Can these people just demand to be let into your home without a warrant, and they expect you to comply?? WTF? And also, how does the UK keep track of who should/shouldn’t have a TV license? Does the retailer send your name and address to some database when you buy a TV? And also also, the line between a TV and Not a TV is a thin one indeed; your iPhone is a TV, so is your computer monitor? Are you expected to purchase a TV license for those things as well? And if you don’t have a TV license where it’s supposed to be, do they confiscate your TV? ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2025, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-other-first-world-countries-do-police-have-the-same-issues-as-american-police-better-explained-in-op/1021227/3 "2025-07-23T16:33:47Z")
Let’s start with some numbers… Relevant is those countries with unarmed police: > **[Police firearm use by country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country)** > > The use of firearms by police forces varies widely across the world, in part due to differences in gun use policy, civilian firearm laws, and recording of police activity. Police forces may require that officers use warning shots before aiming on-target, officers may need to make verbal warnings before using their firearms, and officers may be prohibited from carrying weapons while performing tasks such as highway patrol where gun use is not expected. > In nineteen countries or territories, the p... And then how the US stacks-up: > **[List of countries with annual rates and counts for killings by law enforcement officers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_annual_rates_and_counts_for_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers)** > > This is a list of countries with annual rates and counts for killings by law enforcement officers. > New Zealand For this one, the US is statistically at number 29, with worse numbers than Mali, Sudan, and Rwanda relating to law enforcement-caused deaths. I will note the casual observation that those countries with unarmed police appear well at the bottom of the list of countries with police-caused deaths. Altho, somehow, some of those with armed police forces area also low on the list. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2025, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-other-first-world-countries-do-police-have-the-same-issues-as-american-police-better-explained-in-op/1021227/4 "2025-07-23T19:26:15Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > Obviously outside of the US things like the First and Fifth Amendments aren’t things – by which I mean, they’re codified differently but they still exist. I wouldn’t put that as a given. One possible reason that the US looks so bad is that we have an extremely liberal criminal system. In most of the first world, mental illness is relatively easy to diagnose and force interventions. The US did have this but when the Commies started to lock up capitalists and subversives as mentally ill, we illegalized most of this and the Supreme Court ruled that it violated due process. Japan, last I looked, had something like a 99% confession rate among the convicted, with significant reports of police brutality being the cause of the confessions. The US is, I believe, is among a minority of countries that uses a jury, and certainly the one with the strongest use of it. Most European nations use the Inquisitorial process where a judge (i.e. the government) uses his own judgement and a panel of his own forensic experts to decide who is guilty and who is innocent. The UK does have, on paper, similar concepts as limits to questioning, searching, detaining, etc. But the hurdles for all of these are significantly lower. Police can much more easily get a pass for far more intrusive activities. I’d expect that this is true for the rest of Europe as well. There’s no greater Constitutional limit that citizens can point at to drive the courts to err towards as much caution as ours require. While it’s quite possible - and likely - that US cops are worse trained than those of other nations, they’re working in an environment that makes it much harder to get to the bottom of crime and to intervene before criminals have become more professional and comfortable in the role. It’s harder for them to impose penalties. They’re much more likely to deal with people with untreated mental illness. You need more of them to have the same impact - which you can’t achieve without lowering standards - and they’re going to be less satisfied in their career. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2025, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-other-first-world-countries-do-police-have-the-same-issues-as-american-police-better-explained-in-op/1021227/5 "2025-07-23T19:52:44Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > And if YouTube is any indication, they regard Constitutional rights as an inconvenience (watch them flip out whenever someone invokes their right to remain silent). Youtube is certainly not any sort of indication. Not only are the videos cherry picked, but some are faked. There are around 900000 police officers in the USA. You can always find bad actors in a group that large. There are only 146000 cops in the UK, and 70k in Canada. And the UK is the only populous nation where most (but certainly not all) cops are routinely not armed with firearms. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > While it’s quite possible - and likely - that US cops are worse trained than those of other nations, Most other Western European nations- sure. But in some nations the training is far far less than the average USA training of six months. That does not count however another six months of being trained on the job. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2025, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-other-first-world-countries-do-police-have-the-same-issues-as-american-police-better-explained-in-op/1021227/6 "2025-07-23T22:15:57Z")
I recently wrote about this here. My wife had a friend–more of an acquaintance; they were both members of the weaving group at our town hall. Her husband was Haitian and a doctor. He drove a Caddy because he felt that his patients would not trust him if he looked poor. He was stopped repeatedly. That was a clear case of racial profiling. You’d think they would eventually recognize him. Especially since the cops have real time access to car registration info. The other case that comes to mind involves some cops with a no-knock warrant who smashed a door in the middle of the night. They were looking for drugs (and did not eventually find them). They came in like home invaders; he took out his gun and killed one of them and another of them killed the guy’s wife. He had a licence for the gun, but it was for a different location and the licence didn’t entitle him to move it. They tried to charge him for that and I forget the outcome. This was not racial; I think he was French-Canadian. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2025, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-other-first-world-countries-do-police-have-the-same-issues-as-american-police-better-explained-in-op/1021227/7 "2025-07-23T22:16:53Z")
That’s in the US or some other country? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2025, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-other-first-world-countries-do-police-have-the-same-issues-as-american-police-better-explained-in-op/1021227/8 "2025-07-23T22:27:19Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > They have less training than most other First World police, they’re armed and oft trigger happy. What training they do have is bad; they are trained to be violent and hostile to the public. American police [are literally taught to think like an occupying army](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/08/yes-american-police-act-like-occupying-armies-they-literally-studied-their-tactics), with lots of training from or even in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2025, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-other-first-world-countries-do-police-have-the-same-issues-as-american-police-better-explained-in-op/1021227/9 "2025-07-23T22:48:10Z")
Kinda related, (from AI response to search) in the past 5 years the Chicago Police Department has paid out nearly $400 million to settle police misconduct cases. $62.5 million so far in 25. Do cities outside of the US (or even IN the US) bear such costs? ---
**Author:** ![Jegpeg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jegpeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jegpeg)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2025, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-other-first-world-countries-do-police-have-the-same-issues-as-american-police-better-explained-in-op/1021227/10 "2025-07-23T22:54:26Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > Also, **UK TV License Inspectors** : I’ve seen plenty of videos of people telling TV license inspectors go hit the bricks. Can these people just demand to be let into your home without a warrant, and they expect you to comply?? WTF? And also, how does the UK keep track of who should/shouldn’t have a TV license? Does the retailer send your name and address to some database when you buy a TV? And also also, the line between a TV and Not a TV is a thin one indeed; your iPhone is a TV, so is your computer monitor? Are you expected to purchase a TV license for those things as well? And if you don’t have a TV license where it’s supposed to be, do they confiscate your TV? TV licence inspectors can ask you to let them into your home without a warrent. You have the right to refuse but if they have enough evidence they may get a warrant. When I was a kid I believe retailers sent your name and addres to them but nowadays letters are sent to all homes without a licence asking whether you do anything that requires one. If you do not reply stronger letters are sent and eventually they may come to visit. If you say to do not require a licence they will send another letter some time later (I think it is about 2 years) to confirm if it is still the case. “_You need a TV Licence to watch or record programmes on a TV, computer or other device as they’re broadcast, and to watch on-demand BBC programmes on iPlayer_” So you need a licence to watch a live stream of a non BBC channel on a computer or phone but you can watch on demand services for broadcasters other then the BBC but need a licnce to watch the BBC on demand service. It is one licence per household so If you family have 2 TVs 3 computers and 4 phones you only need 1 licence, If you are found guilty of watching TV without a licence you can be fined up to £1000. ([TV Licence - GOV.UK](https://www.gov.uk/find-licences/tv-licence)) ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-other-first-world-countries-do-police-have-the-same-issues-as-american-police-better-explained-in-op/1021227/11 "2025-07-24T04:21:40Z")
> [@Jegpeg](#): > > You have the right to refuse but if they have enough evidence they may get a warrant. I’ve never seen so many bleeding aerials. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-other-first-world-countries-do-police-have-the-same-issues-as-american-police-better-explained-in-op/1021227/12 "2025-07-24T13:16:53Z")
As for investigating police malpractice the UK there have been several incarnations of what is now the IOPC: > **[We are the Independent Office for Police Conduct | Independent Office for...](https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/)** Whether it’s particularly effective is open to debate. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-other-first-world-countries-do-police-have-the-same-issues-as-american-police-better-explained-in-op/1021227/13 "2025-07-24T21:30:31Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Kinda related, (from AI response to search) in the past 5 years the Chicago Police Department has paid out nearly $400 million to settle police misconduct cases. $62.5 million so far in 25. > > Do cities outside of the US (or even IN the US) bear such costs? Out of a budget of over $2 billion. The Met Police in London, has a budget about half that or so, their cost for lawsuits was about 80 million pounds over 5 years. So, less, but still significant. ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-other-first-world-countries-do-police-have-the-same-issues-as-american-police-better-explained-in-op/1021227/14 "2025-07-24T22:30:54Z")
What kinds of shenanigans do the London Met police get into? Clearly they don’t kill minorities all that often since only a few of them are armed. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-other-first-world-countries-do-police-have-the-same-issues-as-american-police-better-explained-in-op/1021227/15 "2025-07-24T22:33:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The Met Police in London, has a budget about half that or so, their cost for lawsuits was about 80 million pounds over 5 years. So, less, but still significant. It’s also very difficult to quantify since legal fees are probably lower in the UK and it’s plausible that it’s harder for citizens to win their suit against the police (reducing payouts) - which would also make it less likely that they’d initiate a suit (reducing quantity). ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-other-first-world-countries-do-police-have-the-same-issues-as-american-police-better-explained-in-op/1021227/16 "2025-07-24T23:10:26Z")
Canada. The first is Montreal and the second in the mountains north of Montreal. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-other-first-world-countries-do-police-have-the-same-issues-as-american-police-better-explained-in-op/1021227/17 "2025-07-25T00:58:35Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > What kinds of shenanigans do the London Met police get into? Clearly they don’t kill minorities all that often since only a few of them are armed. > **[Metropolitan Police settlement amounts soar to £7.6 million | Bhatt Murphy](https://bhattmurphy.co.uk/newsroom/metropolitan-police-settlement-amounts-soar-to-7-6-million/)** > > An investigation by the Financial Times has uncovered that settlement payments by the Metropolitan Police more than doubled in the past year to April 2024 to £7.6 million in response to an increase in civil claims for police misconduct. The... > **[List of cases of police brutality in the United Kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cases_of_police_brutality_in_the_United_Kingdom)** > > This is a list of cases of police brutality in the United Kingdom. > The Drumcree conflict is a dispute over a yearly parade in Portadown. Inter-communal violence has repeatedly occurred since 1873. Years in which brutality on the part of the RUC has been recorded include: > Category:Deaths in police custody in the United Kingdom > **[Met Police has spent at least £138m on legal battles since 2016 - Liberty...](https://libertyinvestigates.org.uk/articles/met-police-has-spent-at-least-138m-on-legal-battles-since-2016/)** Somewhere around 10% or less carry guns routinely. ---
**Author:** ![fedman1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@fedman1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman1)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-other-first-world-countries-do-police-have-the-same-issues-as-american-police-better-explained-in-op/1021227/18 "2025-07-25T03:10:31Z")
we had similar case here in US ( \*\*Minneapolis, Minnesota (February 2, 2022) where both citizens were killed ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-other-first-world-countries-do-police-have-the-same-issues-as-american-police-better-explained-in-op/1021227/19 "2025-07-25T11:41:40Z")
How much training would the OP require? It appears there are issues with police in other countries as well. So insisting we match their amount of training is not a proven remedy. It is possible to train too much. Currently in my state the police academy is 18 weeks. That’s for all officers from departments big and small. That’s more than military personnel get and it’s 10 weeks more than it was when I got on the job in 1982. On top of that if one works for a Sheriffs Office you also have to go through an additional 6 week corrections academy as you may have to work in the jail. These academy trainings are required by the state and cannot be sidestepped. On top of that one has to work with a field training officer for up to 6 months. Then you’re on probation for up to 2 years. During that time one is required by the state to attend in-service training every year, up to 80 hours. Fail to do that and you lose your law enforcement certification and are fired. Taking officers off the road for training all the time creates a staffing hardship in the agency. At any time an officer is free to just quit, no strings attached. This happens and the department is left holding the bag for the time and expense of all that training and then has to start all over again with someone else There is a massive hiring crisis in American law enforcement. Departments are stretched exceedingly thin as it is. I would suggest the OP solve that before insisting on piling on more questionably effective training requirements which will only exacerbate perceived issues. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-other-first-world-countries-do-police-have-the-same-issues-as-american-police-better-explained-in-op/1021227/20 "2025-07-25T12:00:31Z")
The British police are not (usually) armed with much more than a stick. Thus they cannot afford to be as intimidatory as US police departments as they would probably get themselves beaten severely. Accordingly, British criminals are more willing to push back, if the circumstances look favourable, as they stand little chance of being killed. An example of this is the Manchester [Ringway] airport incident, the trial for which which is ongoing. These are armed officers (at least some of them) but they dare not shoot anyone or they will be in trouble. [Manchester Airport attack accused denies force was unlawful - BBC News](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2k1lj5x0gdo) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-other-first-world-countries-do-police-have-the-same-issues-as-american-police-better-explained-in-op/1021227.md?page=2)