# In praise of Amsterdam’s prostitutes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2004, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-amsterdam-s-prostitutes/266455 "2004-09-28T10:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-amsterdam-s-prostitutes/266455/101 "2004-10-04T09:32:35Z")
quite a few people seem to be conflating prostitution with problems that can be associated with prostitution. Prostitution does not necessarily mean “loitering crack-hos”, human trafficking, abuse, disease, etc. These are problems that some prostitutes suffer, but they don’t have to be part and parcel of the job. In Amsterdam you can go out and buy yourself a good time without being afraid you’re supporting some shady abusive pimp or some poor girl’s drug addiction, and know you are having a safe and hygienic experience as far as these things go. In Singapore prostitution is semi-regulated, with the government mandating regular health check-ups and education for sex workers while still decreeing sex work illegal (talk about a practical solution to puritanical requirements!). **Anecdotally** , I have known students in Montreal (where the women are fine) who part-timed as escorts in order to pay tuition. They weren’t enthusiastic about all of their customers but they certainly spoke highly of some; these ladies enjoyed sex and figured there were worse things they could be doing, so good for them. I’ve been involved with a few strippers and found the dorks as well as the doves, no differently from other professions (though in all fairness this frequently depends on your location and the establishment we’re talking about). One media-savvy communication expert I met a couple of years ago happened to be a stripper doing a stint in Macau, where she would earn in two months more than many people make in a year. One of my wife’s good friends in Boston was a stripper, not just another hottie but also a mathematical genius (stripping was paying for her Ph.D.). Much the same goes for pornography. When I met Danni Ashe (of Harddrive fame) the first thing that struck me was how damn smart a businesswoman she was (OK, I am lying, the first thing that struck me is that she really is extremely hot and has amazingly beautiful breasts, but after that…). I was certainly not thinking “oh my god, this woman earns her income through a form of prostitution, this is so bad!” When I see Bella Donna in action, I always think to myself that there’s one Mormon I’d definitely enjoy meeting. Unless you adhere to some religious view and/or see something wrong with liberal sexual intercourse in general (and, let’s face it, puritanism is far from dead) there seem to be few valid objections to allowing women (or men) the freedom to leverage their physical assets should they choose to do so. You can certainly discuss whether (or how) such activity should be taxed, regulated, etc., but cheap pseudo-arguments about “would you want your daughter to…” hardly advertise a solid grasp of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-amsterdam-s-prostitutes/266455/102 "2004-10-04T09:37:44Z")
> [@Sofis](#): > > Quite likely. Given the societal status of prostitution, it is not surprising that many of those who choose it have various problems. But I do not see how outlawing prostitution aids. In the case of drug addiction, it reduces the ease to fund the drug addiction, which makes it easier to escape the drug addiction. In the case of poor self-image and abuse history, it helps escape the downgoing spiral. > [@](#): > > People who think that prostitution is their only alternative are not better off, since they think prostitution is their only alternative. And when that alternative is removed, they are forced to go elsewhere. Maybe they even get help. ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-amsterdam-s-prostitutes/266455/103 "2004-10-04T11:13:08Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > In the case of poor self-image and abuse history, it helps escape the downgoing spiral. I think you’ll find there’s many many people, prostitutes among them, for whom money - and the ability to earn it - provides a significant amount of self-esteem. Denying them this is in no way going to help. Plus, without money - and assuming all these wonderful schemes that have been promised to reforming prostitutes have yet to kick in, which, let’s face it in the real world is probable - these people are going to be at **more** risk of abuse rather than less. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-amsterdam-s-prostitutes/266455/104 "2004-10-04T11:19:28Z")
> [@marky33](#): > > I think you’ll find there’s many many people, prostitutes among them, for whom money - and the ability to earn it - provides a significant amount of self-esteem. Or, rather, the illusion of self-esteem. Look, in a perfect world, I’d have no problem with prostitution. In a perfect world, people could watch violent gangrape videos for all I’d care. Until then, we’re in reality, where most prostitutes _don’t_ go into it because it’s their best course of action. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-amsterdam-s-prostitutes/266455/105 "2004-10-04T11:28:49Z")
Don’t ban prostitution, ban the orgasms! ---
**Author:** ![Sofis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Sofis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-amsterdam-s-prostitutes/266455/106 "2004-10-04T11:33:29Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > In the case of drug addiction, it reduces the ease to fund the drug addiction, which makes it easier to escape the drug addiction. Making drug addicts too poor to buy drugs is a pretty novel way of trying to get rid of drug abuse. Are you sure they won’t sacrifice food, clothing, and other necessities first? > [@Priceguy](#): > > In the case of poor self-image and abuse history, it helps escape the downgoing spiral. Um, how? > [@Priceguy](#): > > And when that alternative is removed, they are forced to go elsewhere. Maybe they even get help. But outlawing prostitution does not remove the alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-amsterdam-s-prostitutes/266455/107 "2004-10-04T14:21:01Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > But it does seem to have an effect in Sweden. The Swedish prostitution ban, just like their alcohol restrictions, is good – for Denmark. Since Denmark now “enjoy” a large influx of Swedes coming here to buy booze, visit whores and generally have a good time. Danes makes money. Swedes gets to pretend they’re moral superior. Everybody’s happy. Meanwhile in the real world a recent survey revealed that just as large a percentage of Swedes as Danes has had experience with prostitutes. Stumbled across this article. [http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=301285](http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=301285) Money quote: Stana Buchowska from the international organization La Strada that works to help victims of trade in females says that a ban helps nothing, it merely hides the problems. Illegalisation has also resulted in many Swedes go to the Bal tics, Poland and other eastern European countries on sex tours. “I call the it the Swedish table-syndrome. They clean up nice and good on the table, but bread crumbs and all kinds of other stuff gets spread on the floor. In short, nothing is cleaned. The problems is merely hidden away under a clean veneer. It’s just as stupid and useless as the America alcohol ban of the thirties” says Stana Buchowska. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-amsterdam-s-prostitutes/266455/108 "2004-10-04T15:25:31Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Meanwhile in the real world a recent survey revealed that just as large a percentage of Swedes as Danes has had experience with prostitutes. And this is noteworthy… why, exactly? Prostitution has only been illegal in Sweden since 1999. Would this cause people that had had previous experience with prostitutes to suddenly die off? ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-amsterdam-s-prostitutes/266455/109 "2004-10-04T15:29:59Z")
> [@Sofis](#): > > Making drug addicts too poor to buy drugs is a pretty novel way of trying to get rid of drug abuse. Are you sure they won’t sacrifice food, clothing, and other necessities first? I frankly don’t know, but it would still be better than being sexually abused for money. > [@](#): > > Um, how? If you have self-esteem and self-image problems, and a history of abuse, and you only think you’re good for being a whore, will being a whore help you or hurt you? ---
**Author:** ![Sofis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Sofis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-amsterdam-s-prostitutes/266455/110 "2004-10-05T07:17:22Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > If you have self-esteem and self-image problems, and a history of abuse, and you only think you’re good for being a whore, will being a whore help you or hurt you? I’m not sure it necessarily does either, I would imagine it depends on the person. But that’s not what I was getting at. What I was wondering was how outlawing prostitution would make this person give up prostitution. After all, they think they’re only good for being a whore. Outlawing prostitution does not show any alternatives. So how does it help? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-amsterdam-s-prostitutes/266455/111 "2004-10-06T11:22:32Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > And this is noteworthy… why, exactly? Prostitution has only been illegal in Sweden since 1999. Would this cause people that had had previous experience with prostitutes to suddenly die off? And this was noteworthy because the survey was specifically examining young men – where a difference should have been noticed were the prohibitions effective. It was a survey I heard in passing on the radio, I’ll see if I can dig up a link. Not that it’d make a difference for me either way. I would oppose illegalisation of prostitution even were it shown beyond doubt to be overwhelming successful in reducing the number of men who visited prostitutes (not a success criterion I’d buy into anyway) and in reducing the number of prostitutes (neither a success criterion I’d buy into) and even were shown to be effective in reducing the trade in women (which I’d consider very fortunate). A woman’s body is her own to do with as she damn well please. Not the property of the state to impose rules and regulations based on some arbitrary moral views. It’s simply naked arrogance for someone to say that certain women should not be allowed to do certain things because it’s bad for them and that we gets to decide this because we know better than themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Mariluz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/94ad74/32.png) [@Mariluz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mariluz)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-amsterdam-s-prostitutes/266455/112 "2004-10-06T14:48:41Z")
- in Spain in the 40s, 50s… prostitution was illegal. So as a way get the whores medical checks, some intelligent guy in the government came up with the idea of registering them as “food manipulators”. Food manipulators had to get medical check-ups every three months, paid for by the government. I’d rather get them legalized directly - the check-up required by a butcher is not the same as that needed by a prostitute. - in Spain now prostitution isn’t illegal (pimping is); the cops were among the biggest proponents of legalization, saying that it would help get the foreign girls to talk if they weren’t risking a jail term. It’s bad enough that they face threats to their families back home. Prostitutes are supposed to set up as “self-employed”: they pay the same taxes as any other self-employed person, get the same benefits. Health coverage is now universal in Spain and has been for years. Everybody is covered, including foreigners, people who have never worked, whatever. If you are employed by someone else, your employer is required to get you a complete yearly checkup; if you are self-employed you’re still suppossed to get at least a yearly. Voluntary treatments are not covered (if you’re in a car crash, Social Security pays for facial reconstruction - if you just dislike your nose, you pony up). Some things can be too slow, psychiatric treatments tend to be too short, but in general the system works well. I hope I’ll never have to become a whore, since I imagine I’d do quite badly at it. But for those who have had to, it’s a lot easier to be able to say “I had this real bad time and I’m doing better now”. I went to Ireland when I was 15, to learn English (something that English people always find real funny). The family with whom I was living tried to hire me out; the person who defended me when I said “I don’t want to go anywhere with him”, saying “she shouldn’t have to if she doesn’t want to” was their across-their-street neighbor, who had been a “bar girl” in Spain years before (her good glassware had been the wedding gift from her pimp). I’ll always recall _her_ a lot more fondly than _them_. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-amsterdam-s-prostitutes/266455/113 "2004-10-06T14:51:54Z")
Thanks **Rune** for the opposing data. Meanwhile, the latest from Sweden [Tax on Men for Violence on Women Proposed](http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=6418346) Slightly longer article: [Schyman in equality policy shock: tax men](http://www.thelocal.se/article.php?ID=468&date=20041005) I feel collectively guilty already. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-amsterdam-s-prostitutes/266455/114 "2004-10-06T15:51:55Z")
> [@Frankenstein Monster](#): > > Thanks **Rune** for the opposing data. > > Meanwhile, the latest from Sweden > > [Tax on Men for Violence on Women Proposed](http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=6418346) > > Slightly longer article: [Schyman in equality policy shock: tax men](http://www.thelocal.se/article.php?ID=468&date=20041005) > > I feel collectively guilty already. :rolleyes: What a load of bull! Poor Swedish men. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-amsterdam-s-prostitutes/266455/115 "2004-10-06T16:07:16Z")
The rolleyes is for the content of the article, not for **Monster** … just to make clear. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-amsterdam-s-prostitutes/266455/116 "2004-10-06T16:36:30Z")
> [@Sofis](#): > > I’m not sure it necessarily does either, I would imagine it depends on the person. But that’s not what I was getting at. What I was wondering was how outlawing prostitution would make this person give up prostitution. After all, they think they’re only good for being a whore. Outlawing prostitution does not show any alternatives. So how does it help? Because it _has_ reduced the number of prostitutes. I’ve been really looking for a cite published in English, but I can’t find one. > [@Rune](#): > > I would oppose illegalisation of prostitution even were it shown beyond doubt to be overwhelming successful in reducing the number of men who visited prostitutes (not a success criterion I’d buy into anyway) and in reducing the number of prostitutes (neither a success criterion I’d buy into) and even were shown to be effective in reducing the trade in women (which I’d consider very fortunate). Then it appears we’ve hit a wall. I’ll never understand anti-pragmatic reasoning such as yours. > [@](#): > > A woman’s body is her own to do with as she damn well please. Not the property of the state to impose rules and regulations based on some arbitrary moral views. It’s simply naked arrogance for someone to say that certain women should not be allowed to do certain things because it’s bad for them and that we gets to decide this because we know better than themselves. For starters, it doesn’t just affect the prostitutes, but others, and for seconds, arrogance or not, we should do what is better for people. As for **Frankenstein Monster** ’s links, I am in total agreement that that proposition is fucking stupid. Luckily, it’s proposed by a single nutcase who happens to get a lot of airtime because she is a former party leader who has, since stepping down from that position, been making a big name of herself as a fighting fanatical feminist. She lost all credibility quite a while ago. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-amsterdam-s-prostitutes/266455/117 "2004-10-06T17:14:54Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > **pervert:** _Ok, but this same reasoning seems to apply to the lady who simply wants to meet and sleep with many men. She uses public areas to find men, so her activities should be regulatable._ > > No, because her individual right to private consensual sexual activity is off-limits to government regulation. (Unless it involves “disturbing the peace” or “indecency” or other vague restrictions intended to preserve public decorum.) That’s likely untrue. While _Lawrence v. Texas_ may eventually change this, at the moment, private consensual sexual activity is not off-limits to government regulation. Pre-marital sex and adultery can be criminalized. Further, even in states where it is not criminalized, making adultery grounds for a divorce for cause is also a form of governmental regulation. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Sofis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Sofis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofis)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-amsterdam-s-prostitutes/266455/118 "2004-10-06T17:55:02Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Because it _has_ reduced the number of prostitutes. Yes, sure, but the relevant question is: which prostitutes are leaving? Is it the ones that don’t think they have any alternatives? No, of course not: they don’t think they have any alternatives. The ones who are leaving are the ones who have better alternatives, and they’re not leaving because the other alternatives suddenly became better, they’re leaving because prostitution became a worse alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-amsterdam-s-prostitutes/266455/119 "2004-10-07T08:32:58Z")
Here’s another surprising take on prostitution, this time in Turkey, from yesterday’s Wall Street Journal opinion page: [Guess Who’s Coming to Europe…](http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB109701989456037332,00.html?mod=opinion%5Fmain%5Fcommentaries) by Norman Stone (requires paid subscription). > [@](#): > > …The fact is that there has been enormous resentment in the provinces of girls known as “Natashas” – blond, leggy creatures from the former Soviet Union (the Russian embassy gets angry if you say they are Russian) who have been driven into prostitution by events back home. They hit Turkey like a tidal-wave, and caused havoc. God-fearing men, married off in the traditional fashion in their teens (as happened with the prime minister’s own son, though he was packed off to America), suddenly discovered these honey-pots, and in many cases either dumped a wife who could not imagine what she had done wrong, or otherwise hollowed out the marriage. In a traditional-minded society, where men, perhaps with a bit of straying, nevertheless keep marriages going, the Natashas acted like a bomb. In small towns in Cappadocia, for instance, there can be as many as 50 of them, and they cause an immense amount of misery. Sophisticated people in the big cities may just laugh it off, but it is not funny in these provincial places, and so a criminalization of **adultery** was briefly put into the law. Bolding mine… ---
**Author:** ![Voodoochile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/898d66/32.png) [@Voodoochile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voodoochile)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-amsterdam-s-prostitutes/266455/120 "2004-10-07T11:40:19Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > If you have self-esteem and self-image problems, and a history of abuse, and you only think you’re good for being a whore, will being a whore help you or hurt you? If you have self-esteem and self-image problems, and a history of abuse, and you only think you’re good for flipping burgers, will flipping burgers help you or hurt you? If you have self-esteem and self-image problems, and a history of abuse, and you only think you’re good for cleaning toilets, will cleaning toilets help you or hurt you? If you have self-esteem and self-image problems, and a history of abuse, and you only think you’re good for landscaping, will mowing lawns help you or hurt you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-amsterdam-s-prostitutes/266455.md?page=5)