# In praise of John Ashcroft **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 18, 2007, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-john-ashcroft/404555 "2007-05-18T03:49:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-john-ashcroft/404555/1 "2007-05-18T03:49:01Z")
I’ve never before had anything good to say about former Attorney General John Ashcroft and I’m happy to be able to do so now. I know this story has been commented on somewhat in the Gonzales threads but I’m posting it again here because I think it deserves its own space. [Slate link](http://www.slate.com/id/2166468/) > [@](#): > > We now know that in 2004 Gonzales and Andy Card raced to the hospital to try to get a very sick John Ashcroft to certify the legality of the president’s secret NSA surveillance program—going over the head of Comey, the acting attorney general while Ashcroft was ill. When Ashcroft refused to override Comey, the White House reauthorized the program without DoJ certification. The question now is whether in so doing, the White House did something illegal, improper, neither, or both. To elaborate a little on the story, Comey testified that after he refused to sign off on the President’s Secret Peeping Tom program (while Comey was acting as AG while Ashcroft was in the hospital), the White House sent Alberto Gonzales and Andy card to go bum rush Ashcroft in the hospital and try to browbeat him into signing off on it himself. The arch-conservative, Ashcroft, while incapacitated and disoriented from surgery, still had enough wherewithal to _throw their asses out of the room_. Good on Ashcroft. Who knew the old bastard had a soul inside him after all? Of course, Bush went ahead with his illegal voyeur taps anyway and this also means that Gonzales committed perjury when he said that there was no significant disagreement in the Justice Department over the wiretaps (that’s a whole other can of worms, don’t get me started), but at least we found out that it’s possble for Bush to accidentally appoint somebody to a high position who has a conscience once in a while. Where there’s one, there may be others. As for Bush going ahead with the peeping without authorization? It turns out it’s not illegal if he says it isn’t, so it’s all good…if you’re a fucking moron who buys that kind of bullshit. By the way, I’d like to give a quick FUCK YOU to Bush for [this](http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003587129) weaselly response to be asked to confirm that he sent his two pet scumbags to strong arm the authorization from Ashy: > [@](#): > > Q. There’s been some very dramatic testimony before the Senate this week from one of your former top Justice Department officials who describes a scene that some Senators called stunning, about a time when the warrantless wiretap program was being reviewed. Sir, did you send your then chief of staff and White House counsel to the bedside of John Ashcroft while he was ill to get him to approve that program, and do you believe that kind of conduct from White House officials is appropriate? > > BUSH: Kelly, there’s a lot of speculation about what happened and what didn’t happen. I’m not going to talk about it. It’s a very sensitive program. I will tell you that one, the program was necessary to protect the American people and it’s still necessary…[blah blah blabber…stupid monkey noises] Hey, Chimpy, it wasn’t “speculation,” it was SWORN FUCKING TESTIMONY from the former Number 2 in your own Justice Department. It aggravates me to no end that the press allows this shitbag to get away with crap like that. While I’m at it, kudos to Comey. He stood up for his principles and he stood (literally) by his boss when the dementors came for his soul. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-john-ashcroft/404555/2 "2007-05-18T04:14:02Z")
This story is right out of bad pulp fiction, especially with the FBI angle and everyone arriving at the hospital in the correct sequence. Still, I have to step back and be amazed that this administration managed to raise the hackles of Ashcroft. That’s when you know some bad shit is going down, when you pine for the days of the flying eagle… The only detail I’m confused about is how the secret program eventually got signed. From what I understand the AG had to sign it by a certain date, which is why the WH pulled this stunt in the first place, and both Comey and Ashcroft said it was either illegal or way too murky for their tastes. So how did it pass? _edit_ OK, nevermind, I see now that one bit of the problem is that they just went ahead and did it. So how can they claim with a straight face it’s all fine and dandy when they pulled the surprise visit? Ugh… ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-john-ashcroft/404555/3 "2007-05-18T05:25:45Z")
I’d respond, but I’m too busy dealing with my heart attack from the thread title. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-john-ashcroft/404555/4 "2007-05-18T05:41:07Z")
[QUOTE=marshmallow] the days of the flying eagle… [/QUOTE] Technically, he was soaring. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-john-ashcroft/404555/5 "2007-05-18T06:21:42Z")
It’s like an episode of _24_, but without all the guns. …that I know of. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-john-ashcroft/404555/6 "2007-05-18T08:18:24Z")
To be as fair as possible, Ashcroft is like one of the SDMB right-wingers in many ways – you may have really strong opposition to a lot of his stances, but if you try to be scrupulously unbiased in evaluating him, you can see him working from solid ethical principles. There’s been a few such instances come to light recently, including one where he wrote a memo essentially telling Mr. Bush to back something Janet Reno had given orders to start, because it was in his (Ashcroft’s) opinion the proper ethical stance for the Government and the DoJ in particular to take. ---
**Author:** ![Club\_33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@Club\_33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Club_33)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-john-ashcroft/404555/7 "2007-05-18T09:08:13Z")
And a big “fuck you” to Tony Snow as well with this little nugget of wisdom: > [@](#): > > At today’s press briefing, White House spokesman Tony Snow dismissed Comey’s testimony and the seriousness of Ashcroft’s condition. When CNN’s Ed Henry asked Snow if the White House had been trying to “take advantage of a very sick man” in “an end-run” to “try to get John Ashcroft to overrule James Comey” Snow replied, “Because he had an appendectomy, his brain didn’t work?” ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-john-ashcroft/404555/8 "2007-05-18T10:23:56Z")
Yeah, I have to say I was impressed by Ashcroft here, and damned if that doesn’t feel weird saying. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-john-ashcroft/404555/9 "2007-05-18T11:18:31Z")
[QUOTE=Leaper] I’d respond, but I’m too busy dealing with my heart attack from the thread title. [/QUOTE] ooh,then let me take this opportunity to talk to you about a unique investment opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-john-ashcroft/404555/10 "2007-05-18T11:38:10Z")
My first thought was, “Is this THE John Ashcroft they’re talking about?” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-john-ashcroft/404555/11 "2007-05-18T12:01:15Z")
I really don’t see where anyone did anything wrong here. John Ashcroft was continuously recertifying the program every 45 days, and when the program came up for recertification when he was in the hospital, and Comey had reservations of signing off, there may have been concerns that he was trying to usurp the power of the AG. That is why White House officials went to see Ashcroft. Little did anyone know that Ashcroft had the same reservations, due to a review that had been conducted recently. So they closed the gap with a White House authorization and subsequently made administrative changes that seemed to satisfy Justice. That seems to be the way things ought to work - kicking decisions up to where proper authority can handle them. Whether you agree with the program or not, nobody seemed to act unethically in getting these questions resolved. ---
**Author:** ![Sean\_Factotum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sean\_Factotum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sean_Factotum)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-john-ashcroft/404555/12 "2007-05-18T12:07:54Z")
[QUOTE=marshmallow] This story is right out of bad pulp fiction, especially with the FBI angle and everyone arriving at the hospital in the correct sequence. Still, I have to step back and be amazed that this administration managed to raise the hackles of Ashcroft. That’s when you know some bad shit is going down, when you pine for the days of the flying eagle… [/QUOTE] Bad pulp fiction? This whole thing reminded me of a scene from _Clear And Present Danger_ with Harrison Ford and James Earl Jones. I agree with **Mr. Moto** on his read of this. The system in this case worked the way it should have. Doesn’t mean it makes me an Ashcroft fan, though. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-john-ashcroft/404555/13 "2007-05-18T12:08:59Z")
You know, when Ashcroft comes off a hero of freedom, that’s a pretty good indication of how absolutely, purely, astonishingly fucked up things have gotten now. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-john-ashcroft/404555/14 "2007-05-18T12:13:13Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] I really don’t see where anyone did anything wrong here. John Ashcroft was continuously recertifying the program every 45 days, and when the program came up for recertification when he was in the hospital, and Comey had reservations of signing off, there may have been concerns that he was trying to usurp the power of the AG. That is why White House officials went to see Ashcroft. Little did anyone know that Ashcroft had the same reservations, due to a review that had been conducted recently. So they closed the gap with a White House authorization and subsequently made administrative changes that seemed to satisfy Justice. That seems to be the way things ought to work - kicking decisions up to where proper authority can handle them. Whether you agree with the program or not, nobody seemed to act unethically in getting these questions resolved. [/QUOTE] Well, it bothered Comey quite a bit. Is it possible he had a better understanding of the situation than you? (Just kidding. Comey, I, most folks here, and people in Madagascar who have never heard of John Ashcroft have a better understanding than you.) I heard about this on the radio and felt the same mental lurch: “My God – I’m admiring John Ashcroft for something!” I remember when he resigned, I thought, “Well, at least his successor is sure to be an improvement.” Boy, do I feel stupid. Christ, Gonzalez is a snivelling weasel. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-john-ashcroft/404555/15 "2007-05-18T12:14:52Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] I really don’t see where anyone did anything wrong here. John Ashcroft was continuously recertifying the program every 45 days, and when the program came up for recertification when he was in the hospital, and Comey had reservations of signing off, there may have been concerns that he was trying to usurp the power of the AG. That is why White House officials went to see Ashcroft. Little did anyone know that Ashcroft had the same reservations, due to a review that had been conducted recently. So they closed the gap with a White House authorization and subsequently made administrative changes that seemed to satisfy Justice. That seems to be the way things ought to work - kicking decisions up to where proper authority can handle them. Whether you agree with the program or not, nobody seemed to act unethically in getting these questions resolved. [/QUOTE] How do you square that with Comey’s testimony, in which he told Andy Card the following: > [@](#): > > After the conduct I had just witnessed, that I would not meet with him without a witness present. He said, “What conduct? We were just there to wish him well.” > I said again, after what I just witnessed, I will not with you without a witness, and I intend that witness to be the Solicitor General of the United States. Seriously, **Mr. Moto** , I’m curious if you simply discount Comey’s sense that this was not only “wrong,” but apparently reprehensible conduct? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-john-ashcroft/404555/16 "2007-05-18T12:20:36Z")
**Mr. Moto** , at the time of the incident, Ashcroft _had no authority_ to sign off on anything. He was relieved of his position while he was ill. Comey was the Acting AG. The White House was trying to pull a fast one. I would really like to know what the date on the document they wanted him to sign was… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-john-ashcroft/404555/17 "2007-05-18T12:21:30Z")
Yeah, I get that. There were concerns all around, and lots of hurt feelings, which is why Bush stepped in personally to calm things down, talk people out of resigning, tell them to do their proper jobs, and spoke with FBI Director Mueller to get those administrative changes made to the program so that Justice was satisfied. If anyone comes out of this looking good, it is Bush himself. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-john-ashcroft/404555/18 "2007-05-18T12:27:23Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Yeah, I get that. There were concerns all around, and lots of hurt feelings, which is why Bush stepped in personally to calm things down, talk people out of resigning, tell them to do their proper jobs, and spoke with FBI Director Mueller to get those administrative changes made to the program so that Justice was satisfied. If anyone comes out of this looking good, it is Bush himself. [/QUOTE] He looks more like he ordered Card and Gonzales to take advantage of Ashcroft’s condition, and then backed down after Comey stood his ground. In other words, he looked like a weasely little fuck. Sort of like he did when he failed to directly answer the question of whether he ordered Card and Gonzales to go to Ashcroft’s hospital bed. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-john-ashcroft/404555/19 "2007-05-18T12:28:51Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Yeah, I get that. There were concerns all around, and lots of hurt feelings, which is why Bush stepped in personally to calm things down, talk people out of resigning, tell them to do their proper jobs, and spoke with FBI Director Mueller to get those administrative changes made to the program so that Justice was satisfied. If anyone comes out of this looking good, it is Bush himself. [/QUOTE] I’m sorry, but considering that Santorum is among your personal heroes, your political judgment leaves me strangely unconvinced… ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-john-ashcroft/404555/20 "2007-05-18T13:00:33Z")
Just in case anyone but **Mr. Moto** is confused about the role of stand up guy George Bush in this matter, here’s Comey’s testimony on the issue: > [@](#): > > COMEY: Mrs. Ashcroft reported that a call had come through, and that as a result of that call Mr. Card and Mr. Gonzales were on their way to the hospital to see Mr. Ashcroft. > > SCHUMER: Do you have any idea who that call was from? > > COMEY: I have some recollection that the call was from the president himself. Yeah, it really makes a lot of sense that Bush merely played the sage mediator after the fact in this little disagreement. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-john-ashcroft/404555.md?page=2)