# In Praise of Older People Bodies With Vaginas **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 16, 2021, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574 "2021-10-16T01:02:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574/124 "2021-11-11T18:57:31Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You’re still arguing that the best way for a trans person to avoid violence is to tell _more_ people about being trans, with _less_ basis for assuming that coming out will be safe for them. Violence against trans people doesn’t happen because they “trick” someone into dating them, it happens because there’s a significant portion of the population that is violently opposed to the existence of trans people. With someone like that, there is no “safe” point at which to advertise their status. They are opening themselves up to violence regardless of when they disclose. I do not know that Caitlin Jenner, Elliot Page, legions of high school students declaring themselves to be trans are opening themselves up to personal violence in the USA in 2021. I think the burden of proof is on you there. It is becoming accepted. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574/125 "2021-11-11T19:00:57Z")
That’s a really strong rebuttal, because millionaire celebrities are _absolutely_ representative of the struggles faced by average trans people. Meanwhile, in the real world: > **[HRC Releases Report on Violence Against Trans, GNC People](https://www.hrc.org/press-releases/marking-the-deadliest-year-on-record-hrc-releases-report-on-violence-against-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-people)** > > 2020 has seen at least 37 transgender and gender non-conforming people violently killed, more than any other year since HRC began tracking this data in 2013. HRC has now tracked more than 200 deaths since 2013 ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574/126 "2021-11-11T22:08:42Z")
Unless there’s a lot smaller number of trans people than I’ve heard, it sounds like the odds of a trans woman being killed by an angry man aren’t a lot different than any other woman’s? Nearly 1800 American women were murdered by men in 2019, and those 37 deaths in the HRC report lumped both trans and nonbinary folks together. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574/127 "2021-11-11T22:37:21Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > With someone like that, there is no “safe” point at which to advertise their status. They are opening themselves up to violence regardless of when they disclose. If that’s true, then the safest place to reveal their status is on their dating profile before they actually meet anyone in person. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574/128 "2021-11-11T22:41:07Z")
Which protects against physical attacks, while opening you up to online harassment. And not all dating happens online. A trans woman is sitting in bar, and a guy asks if he can buy her a drink. What’s she supposed to do, show him her Tinder profile before she replies? ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574/129 "2021-11-11T23:28:03Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Which protects against physical attacks, while opening you up to online harassment. And not all dating happens online. A trans woman is sitting in bar, and a guy asks if he can buy her a drink. What’s she supposed to do, show him her Tinder profile before she replies? Handle it like any other woman? ALL women run a risk of being harassed on dating sites. Typically, the sites don’t even give out actual emails. Someone harasses you, you notify the site and the harasser gets kicked off. If a trans or any woman wants to engage in bar hookups, I would suggest venue awareness. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574/130 "2021-11-11T23:37:16Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > Handle it like any other woman? Do cis woman generally start off conversations with new people by saying, “By the way, I have a vagina?” No? Then you’re not actually advocating they handle it “like other women,” are you? Also, when a cis woman says, “I do this to make myself safe from being attacked,” do you also lecture them about how their concern for their safety is unfair, because it could potentially cause you a minor inconvenience? > [@Jay\_Z](#): > > If a trans or any woman wants to engage in bar hookups… Or at a laundromat, or at a coffee shop, or at work. The point was that not all dating starts in an app. People still meet people in real life. > [@](#): > > …I would suggest venue awareness. Does that include not revealing that they’re trans if they’re not sure they’re talking to someone with whom it’s safe to do that? ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574/131 "2021-11-12T01:25:37Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Do cis woman generally start off conversations with new people by saying, “By the way, I have a vagina?” No? Then you’re not actually advocating they handle it “like other women,” are you? A phone number from someone who doesn’t know your trans is not that useful to the trans person. The trans person can drag things out as long as they want, the opportunity is still going to be at 3% at best, because the trans person has chosen to keep a key piece of information concealed. The trans person can either realize their low percentage strategies and change them, or continue with low percentage, dangerous strategies. A virginal woman can wear revealing clothing and go to the local meet market and get some attention. “Why don’t they call me back?” Because you are hanging out somewhere where the guys you want don’t go. Why can’t the homosexual man just slap on a football jersey and flirt with the guys down at the sports bar the way a woman can? After all, they both want the same thing. But most men aren’t homosexual, and the ones that are perhaps aren’t hanging out at the sports bar. In all of these situations, people are experiencing frustrations because their behavior does not match up with who they are or what they want. A phone number given to a trans woman is going to be of the most value when the giver has a good idea or is certain that the receiver is a trans woman, and that is what he wants. There are likely places the trans woman can go to make this more certain. Again, making it clear the the trans person is a trans person is critical to the process. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574/132 "2021-11-12T01:39:35Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > A phone number from someone who doesn’t know your trans is not that useful to the trans person. The trans person can drag things out as long as they want, the opportunity is still going to be at 3% at best, because the trans person has chosen to keep a key piece of information concealed. The trans person can either realize their low percentage strategies and change them, or continue with low percentage, dangerous strategies. Not everyone approaches dating like they’re trying to optimize efficiency at an Amazon warehouse. There are concerns other than “what’s the smallest amount of time I need to invest in order to get laid.” Such as, again, “Is it physically safe for me to reveal this fact about myself to this person?” ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574/133 "2021-11-12T02:48:33Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Not everyone approaches dating like they’re trying to optimize efficiency at an Amazon warehouse. Like I said, venues matter. Maybe you’d get the answers you want at somewhere other than SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574/134 "2021-11-12T03:14:27Z")
I agree with everything Miller has said. It’s possibly relevant that I have a lot of trans and non-binary friends. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574/135 "2021-11-12T17:15:30Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > Like I said, venues matter. Not in the context of this conversation, they don’t. > [@Jay\_Z](#): > > Maybe you’d get the answers you want at somewhere other than SDMB. Buddy, I’m not looking for _answers_ from you. I already know you’ve got nothing to offer on that score. I’m here to try to show you why your attitude on this subject is seven kinds of fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574/136 "2021-11-12T17:47:08Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m here to try to show you why your attitude on this subject is seven kinds of fucked up. What’s fucked up about his attitude? I’m not sure what argument you’re making or what solution you’re putting forward that would be effective in minimizing the risk of assault to trans people in the dating world. Nobody here thinks there is any excuse for assault based on a person’s gender identity or sexual preference or for wearing something “too revealing” or having too much to drink, etc. In an ideal world, none of this would happen. But in the world we live, all these things do happen and what’s been suggested is possible ways for trans people to mitigate the risks. Now maybe you think the suggestions are inadequate. But what else would you have people do except offer advice they would almost certainly give their own family member navigating the fraught dating world? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574/137 "2021-11-12T18:05:11Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > What’s fucked up about his attitude? I’m not sure what argument you’re making or what solution you’re putting forward that would be effective in minimizing the risk of assault to trans people in the dating world. My argument is that we should allow trans people to take the steps they feel are necessary to feel safe when dating, including choosing their own moment to reveal to a potential partner that they’re trans. **Jay-Z** ’s argument is that this unacceptable, because it very slightly increases the odds that he’ll end up on a date with someone he’s not interested in fucking. He has since tried to recast his position as offering dating advice to trans people, which has been an unconvincing pivot, given that nobody was asking for advice on the subject before he started offering it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2021, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574/138 "2021-11-12T18:25:22Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > My argument is that we should allow trans people to take the steps they feel are necessary to feel safe when dating, including choosing their own moment to reveal to a potential partner that they’re trans. Agreed. > [@Miller](#): > > **Jay-Z** ’s argument is that this unacceptable, because it very slightly increases the odds that he’ll end up on a date with someone he’s not interested in fucking. You’re right, that doesn’t seem fair. Why should trans people take all the risks? 😜 ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574/139 "2021-11-13T09:09:34Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > My argument is that we should allow trans people to take the steps they feel are necessary to feel safe when dating, including choosing their own moment to reveal to a potential partner that they’re trans. I certainly agree with all of that but could it not be the case that delaying such an announcement also perhaps increases the chances of unsafe confrontations? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574/140 "2021-11-13T13:39:09Z")
I’m going to let the people who are directly affected, and who have personal experience, figure that out, and not lecture them on what I think they ought to do. Also, not every date arises from an obvious “pre date”. It may make sense to say “trans man” on a dating profile. It almost certainly doesn’t make sense to wear a sign that says “trans man” every time you go out in public. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574/141 "2021-11-13T14:01:45Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > It may make sense to say “trans man” on a dating profile I think it probably does, even though it will necessarily shrink your potential pool of dates it filters out non-starters and doesn’t waste your time or anyone elses. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > It almost certainly doesn’t make sense to wear a sign that says “trans man” every time you go out in public. Absolutely. It is no-one’s business in 99.9% of public interactions. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574/142 "2021-11-13T16:25:07Z")
Here’s a story I told in a near identical discussion a couple of years ago: > [@Should you expect to know what genitals a person has before a first date?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/277): > > Here’s what happened to a trans person that I know: > > She lived in a small town on the outskirts of a major Southern city. She posted an ad on a personals website. She included pictures and a description, like most other ads, and also mentioned that she was trans. She didn’t hide this. > > She went on a handful of dates over a few months. One guy clicked, and they had an intimate encounter (let’s call it 2nd base, or something like that). They lost contact – she figured he’d lost interest. Then, out of the blue, about a month later, this guy (a spammer who was almost certainly him, based on some of the details of the incident) emailed/posted on social media to her boss, many of her family members, friends, and neighbors, with pictures (the same picture from the dating site), that she was a lying dirty trans expletive. Not all of her friends/family and none of her coworkers were aware of this. It became unbearable and she quit her job. > > In my understanding, this kind of thing is not a terribly uncommon experience for trans folks who openly date online. Many of them are probably already out, so such an outing is irrelevant. But many are not. Outing one’s self carries considerable risk, and thus many trans folks will opt to “save” such information for when it’s really, really necessary – i.e. before an intimate encounter with someone they believe they can trust. There’s a risk there, of course, but that can be minimized by timing the conversation to a public place – like at the end of a meal at a restaurant. > > In a society (or maybe just a locality) with lots of transphobes, some of whom are capable of violence, there’s no 100% safe way for trans folks to date. Based on conversations with trans folks, I think the safest strategy is to reveal this information in a public place after some level of trust and rapport has developed, but before any intimate encounter. She’s now almost certain the guy hadn’t noticed, at first, that she disclosed her gender identity in her ad. And afterwards, he was so upset he had kissed a trans woman that he went on this awful abusive and harassing binge afterwards. But that’s the kind of thing that can sometimes happen to everyday trans people who disclose their gender identity to people they haven’t established trust with. ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574/143 "2021-11-13T22:06:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > She’s now almost certain the guy hadn’t noticed, at first, that she disclosed her gender identity in her ad. And afterwards, he was so upset he had kissed a trans woman that he went on this awful abusive and harassing binge afterwards. But that’s the kind of thing that can sometimes happen to everyday trans people who disclose their gender identity to people they haven’t established trust with. I’m not sure what the solution here is. NOT disclose in the ad? This guy would still show up then, he’s still going to get mad, since now it’s not in the ad at all and she can’t tell how he’s going to react. Plus, the next ten men are just as likely to react the same way, since she isn’t weeding out the ones who won’t respond to a trans woman ad, and she can’t tell, like most of us can’t, how someone is going to react. Some men don’t read the ads. They just take a look at the picture and send out mass contacts, figuring some women will not respond or flake anyway, and this way they can get as much opportunity as they want. This also has the effect of the women getting things they don’t want, things they stated they don’t want. Because these men don’t read the ads, don’t care about the woman’s conditions, figure it’s up to her to enforce those conditions. In this case, not reading the ad backfired on the man from his perspective. My perspective in those situations is if there is an important issue, before being involved, you need to mention it more than once, and maybe follow up with research as well. It’s an application, some people are going to try to bluff their way through. But you’ll get a whole lot more inappropriate responses if you don’t check at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-older-people-bodies-with-vaginas/952574.md?page=8)