# In Praise of Two-Chord Songs: I'll Take You There. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 29, 2018, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304 "2018-04-29T10:55:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304/41 "2018-04-30T02:58:15Z")
And, to be fair, that Alan Pollock I quoted before tends to agree with you **DooWahDiddy** , but reading further on, he does say: “Again, one can make a “theoretical” argument that the harmony here is, structurally, just a droning i chord. But even those who might agree with this perspective will still acknowledge the extent to which the inner voice here connotes that saddened, sighing gesture.” And I completely agree with that. ---
**Author:** ![DooWahDiddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304/42 "2018-04-30T03:02:58Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > It’s a middle voice there that is descending, not the bassline. The low cello maintains a constant E pedal there. (Not that the distinction takes away from your point.) Yeah, you’re right, I didn’t go back and check. I can see your point, too; like I said, it’s really just a matter of defining the terms and making a judgment call. I guess you’d also have to decide if bass notes make a chord “different”, too; i.e. if I go C, C/E, C/A, C/G, is that a 4-chord song or just one? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304/43 "2018-04-30T03:13:15Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#): > > Yeah, you’re right, I didn’t go back and check. I can see your point, too; like I said, it’s really just a matter of defining the terms and making a judgment call. I guess you’d also have to decide if bass notes make a chord “different”, too; i.e. if I go C, C/E, C/A, C/G, is that a 4-chord song or just one? Definitely something that would be contextual. Just played straight through, with no further context, I’d probably just call it one chord. But it depends on what else is going on. Sometimes a slash chord is just a simplified way of expressing a more complicated harmony. Sometimes it’s just the bass moving around. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304/44 "2018-04-30T08:07:29Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#): > > The vocal line is not usually included when defining chord names, so you should be safe. However, Eleanor Rigby should technically be excluded, because it goes to an Em6 on "All the lonely “PEO-ple”, which does change the flavor of the chord quite a bit. That was one of the parts I meant, I think… The vocal line has to be included in understanding the song, especially if in a certain song the vocal frequently includes notes that redefine the chord. For example, if you wrote a song where the guitar played open fifths a lot and the vocals kept switching between major and minor thirds, and sometimes threw in sevenths, the guitar indications would not even come close to describing the song. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304/45 "2018-04-30T08:09:50Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#): > > Yeah, you’re right, I didn’t go back and check. I can see your point, too; like I said, it’s really just a matter of defining the terms and making a judgment call. I guess you’d also have to decide if bass notes make a chord “different”, too; i.e. if I go C, C/E, C/A, C/G, is that a 4-chord song or just one? C/A is pretty hard to distinguish from Am7, unless the A in the bass sounds really insignificant for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304/46 "2018-04-30T09:47:10Z")
Hey, who put this intelligent theory discussion in the middle of my thread?! Try to start a discussion on a simple topic, and Dopers will go pages arguing what “simple” means. That’s why I love this place. Hmm, in terms of what I was calling for in the OP, yeah, the stuff being discussed is important: is the chord variant an essential part of the song’s hook? I am trying to come up with a non-theory way to describe a distinction. How about: are the variations being tossed in as part of a “big stew” that is trying to stay centered on the main chord, or is the chord variation “moving” the focus of the sound, so it feels like a chord change? ? And I was not thinking about the vocal line at all. Just chords. So this discussion is unpacking the difference between a song that is really trying to embrace its I-IV nature, vs. a song that you’d swear has many chords because of what happens within and on top of the two-chord (not necessarily I-IV). * * * Regarding the main topic, I think this is a One-Chorder: **War, Low Rider** : [War - Low Rider - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A0U7jakUY8) lordy what a great song. Lots going on, but I never hear the central groove change. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304/47 "2018-04-30T10:35:54Z")
Didn’t James Brown (or was it George Clinton?) audition a guitarist (or was it a keyboardist?) thus?: “Can you play a D seventh sus 9 chord?” “Of course.” “Yeah, but can you play it _for forty-five minutes?_” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304/48 "2018-04-30T15:35:19Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#): > > That’s kind of my point; in ER, at the bridge/chorus/whatever, to keep that as Em for three measures would rob us of that descending bassline and therefore disqualify it from being a “two-chord song”. But I’ve been known to be somewhat nitpicky, so maybe it’s just me. 😉 Me too 🙂 > [@pulykamell](#): > > But I truly didn’t want this to explode into some theoretical side discussion. Let’s just pretend I said Eleanor Rigby is “essentially” just two chords: C and Em, although the Em may come in flavors of Em, Em7, and Em6 (or an implied A/E). Totally. I guess it’s all what you want out of your analysis. As **WordMan** says: “So this discussion is unpacking the difference between a song that is really trying to embrace its I-IV nature, vs. a song that you’d swear has many chords because of what happens within and on top of the two-chord (not necessarily I-IV).” There are times when it’s useful to identify that Eleanor Rigby is just two chords, but there are also times when that kind of analysis fails to communicate essential information about a song or progression. And there are times when it’s just important to shut up and listen :). ---
**Author:** ![DooWahDiddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304/49 "2018-04-30T15:56:35Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > For example, if you wrote a song where the guitar played open fifths a lot and the vocals kept switching between major and minor thirds, and sometimes threw in sevenths, the guitar indications would not even come close to describing the song. I agree that it wouldn’t, but it still wouldn’t change the fact that it’s a one-chord (or whatever) song, at least not in my eyes. If the instrument is playing a G5 but the vocal is alternating between a B and a Bb, it’s still a song with one chord, a G5. But yes, you can also over-analyze these things, and sometimes it’s better just to shut up and play the tune. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304/50 "2018-04-30T16:01:20Z")
I just find it amusing that the one time I decide not to be nitpicky and technical about things of music theory nature, there’s like three other posters wanting to be nitpicky and technical. 🙂 At any rate, I take the more simple view of C and Em, with a note that there’s a chromatically descending line from the minor seventh to the fifth of Em thrown in the chorus. I prefer to think of it as a countermelody of some sort. Or like I said, just a [line cliche](http://www.thejazzpianosite.com/jazz-piano-lessons/jazz-chord-progressions/line-cliches/) to me. You can complicate the naming if you want–personally, I don’t like doing so. At any rate, that’s the last I want to say about it. There’s obviously philosophical differences about how we interpret “what defines a chord as being different from another chord”? I used to have a very nitpicky interpretation, but, I dunno, maybe I just got old and listened to too much modal jazz or something and now I blur boundaries much more. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304/51 "2018-04-30T16:17:04Z")
I play a lot of bluegrass/oldtime/Americana. The “standard” song has 3 chords, 1/4/5. But there are quite a few that have only 2. Last Sat we played a gig that included 3 2 chord songs:[Crazy Heart](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkCa-sjzVbs); and 2 we play as a medley [Julia Delaney and Sally in the Garden](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipavVrFgvYg). ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304/52 "2018-04-30T17:31:22Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > “[Evil Ways](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tKIPuLfeKg)” by Santana is just two chords; its success is due to the organ and guitar solos. I disagree, it goes to the V chord to end each verse. If that’s a two-chord song, then so is every twelve-bar blues. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304/53 "2018-04-30T17:35:23Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > I disagree, it goes to the V chord to end each verse. If that’s a two-chord song, then so is every twelve-bar blues. AH, yes, that unambiguously, by whatever definition we’re using, has another chord in it. 95% of the song is the i-IV vamp, but it all resolves to a V in “this can’t go ON…” that sends us back to the i. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304/54 "2018-04-30T17:56:33Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Yeah, it’s going to depend where you draw the line on “different chord.” I lump the Em6 in with an Em, personally, like I would consolidate a C-C6-Cmaj7-C6 vamp as essentially one chord, as well. And melody parts can certainly affect what a chord is called in a lead sheet, of course, depending on how prominent the melody note is. As a bassist, but also guitarist, this is definitely true. I view the under-utilized Major 6th chord as essentially a discrete chord, being an inversion of the minor chord a fourth below, but without the bass note. If the bassist plays the bass note as the root of the minor chord, it totally changes everything. But even just the guitarist can change it. Even just a _vocal_ sustain, like the Beach Boys, of the sixth (or seventh) of a major chord can radically influence the overall sound. As the bassist, I have control over any major chord that the rest of a band is playing. If I play a groove on the seventh, high up on the fretboard, the song takes on a different feel. If I play the seventh of a major chord as a low ostinato, like on the lower E string, that same major chord will sound menacing, as it essentially takes on a Locrian tonality by putting the seventh scale degree in the bass. I figured this out recently when I was playing bass along with John Mayer’s song _No Such Thing._ It’s a jangly upbeat major-seventh dominated song, but throw in a low D# (I experimented with detuning the E string a half step) on that open E string and suddenly the song turns into an unstable-sounding Locrian cacophony. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304/55 "2018-04-30T18:54:09Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > I view the under-utilized Major 6th chord as essentially a discrete chord, being an inversion of the minor chord a fourth below, but without the bass note. I think you mean a minor third below, right? Or am I misunderstanding? C6 (for example) has the same notes as Am7. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304/56 "2018-04-30T19:22:12Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > …and suddenly the song turns into an unstable-sounding Locrian cacophony. Good lord, we can’t have _that._😉 Seriously, that bassist POV makes sense. You are a throughline through the assembled chords. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304/57 "2018-04-30T19:55:15Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > At any rate, that’s the last I want to say about it. There’s obviously philosophical differences about how we interpret “what defines a chord as being different from another chord”? I used to have a very nitpicky interpretation, but, I dunno, maybe I just got old and listened to too much modal jazz or something and now I blur boundaries much more. Not to prolong this (and I always enjoy talking with/hearing from other musicians about stuff like this), but I’m glad you brought up jazz. It’s a context in which, most of the time, additions to the triad, and even passing chords themselves, aren’t really a fundamental part of the song. Take the tune ‘All of Me’. Opens with a C, and the second chord is an E7. But I (and others) often throw in a B-7b5 before the E7. Does that chord “count”? It’s definitely different from the E7, but it’s also kind of just adding color around the V of vi. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304/58 "2018-04-30T21:48:51Z")
Just to add another non-musician perspective: I don’t notice chords, and they often don’t make sense to me. I mostly listen to the melody, the lyrics, sometimes the vocal harmony, and the rhythm is also important. I’d never think of Eleanor Rigby as a simple song because of the lyrics, and the violins, especially the short, sharp violin bits under Paul’s smooth singing. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304/59 "2018-04-30T22:38:20Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Not to prolong this (and I always enjoy talking with/hearing from other musicians about stuff like this), but I’m glad you brought up jazz. It’s a context in which, most of the time, additions to the triad, and even passing chords themselves, aren’t really a fundamental part of the song. Take the tune ‘All of Me’. Opens with a C, and the second chord is an E7. But I (and others) often throw in a B-7b5 before the E7. Does that chord “count”? It’s definitely different from the E7, but it’s also kind of just adding color around the V of vi. I keep thinking about this question, and I’m not sure how I’d answer it. It’s kind of both yes and no to me, mostly yes, I think. For purposes of memorization, I would only think of the C and E7. But for playing with other people, you do kinda gotta clue them in that you’re thinkin Bm7b5 there. So far as I can tell, it’s basically functioning as a ii of vi going into a V of vi there, so it really is a different chord functionally. Then again, it’s not a necessary chord, and is, like you say, just adding color, as many other chord substitutions there would do.But I’m getting a headache thinking about it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304/60 "2018-04-30T22:44:31Z")
I mean, part of me is also thinking of like when you comp blues. You’re playing over, say, in the key of C, C7 the whole time, but you’re throwing in sixth chords, chords that look like F/C, stuff that looks like 13#9s, etc. in there, but I just think of it all as C7, or over the V chord (G7 in our key of C here), I like doing New Orleans-style licks where you play a C major arpeggio type of thing over it, but I just think of that as a V7 chord rather than, I dunno, C major over G7. I think, though, that in the Bm7b5 example you gave, there’s a bit more going on there, so I’d probably box into the category of “different chord.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-praise-of-two-chord-songs-ill-take-you-there/813304.md?page=4)