# In Pulp Fiction... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 1, 2006, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975 "2006-01-01T18:30:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ass\_For\_A\_Hat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Ass\_For\_A\_Hat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ass_For_A_Hat)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975/61 "2006-02-28T02:56:58Z")
Since we’re throwing out odd theories about details of the film that were left unclear…this is mine. When Vince and Mia are at Jackrabbit Slims, they discuss the Tony Rocky Horror situation. When Vince tells Mia the reason that he heard for Tony’s “accident”, she sternly tells him that the foot massage never happened. My take on that scene is that Mia is lying. During the entirety of their “date” that night, there was always cool flirtyness in the way that Mia spoke to Vince. When Vince told her that a foot massage was the reason for Tony’s accident, she gets noticeably agitated. That was the only time that she really spoke frankly with Vince. I think that’s because she realized it was true. Just my theory though. I’ve also heard it theorized that Vince and Mia didn’t really win the dance contest that night. They really just stole the trophy. Evidence of this can supposedly be heard on the radio that can be heard from the window Butch passes as he sneaks back to his apartment to reclaim the watch. I’ve listened a few times and can only vaguely make out something about Jackrabit Slims. Anyone have any thoughts about that? It’s a theory that I like, but Vince and Mia did dance pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![diku](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4af34b/32.png) [@diku](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/diku)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975/62 "2006-02-28T03:06:58Z")
One thing on the timeline. Butch calls his buddy Lance about the bets the night of the fight, not the next day. They stop the cab on the way to the hotel. ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975/63 "2006-02-28T03:44:38Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > I was wondering why they had Kathy Griffin playing herself in the movie. My guess: It’s a joke. Don’t push it too far. ---
**Author:** ![OneCut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@OneCut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCut)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975/64 "2006-02-28T05:26:30Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Doesn’t Vincent spend an awful lot of time in the bathroom, for a heroin user? Only if you assume that he’s using the toilet. Can anyone fill me in on what “palooka”, “punchy” and “the cold burn” mean? ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975/65 "2006-02-28T05:50:34Z")
> [@OneCut](#): > > Only if you assume that he’s using the toilet. > Can anyone fill me in on what “palooka”, “punchy” and “the cold burn” mean? Palooka is from the comic strip Joe Palooka by Ham Fisher. Palooka was a prize fighter-a boxer. Punchy is self-explanitory. Watch the movie, and you’ll see the cold burn in action. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975/66 "2006-02-28T05:53:31Z")
> [@NailBunny](#): > > 1. After the fight when Butch has disappeared and all the thugs are gathering with Marcelles, Vincent whispers to Mia asking if she is okay, to which she replies (if memory serves) “Yes, I never thanked you for dinner the other night.” Implying it’s been at least a couple of days. > > 2. Butch and Fabienne are staying at a hotel, not an apartment. She talks about ordering room service. Yeah, I caught my error of calling it an apartment instead of a hotel about five seconds after submitting. Excellent catch on Mia saying “the other night” at the fight, which kills any hope of the fight being the night after the date. I had thought that it would be neat if the whole movie (minus the gold watch story) happened in a solid four-day chunk of time from a Thursday to Sunday, but that doesn’t seem to hold up to scrutiny. > [@diku](#): > > One thing on the timeline. Butch calls his buddy Lance about the bets the night of the fight, not the next day. They stop the cab on the way to the hotel. Good catch. That part of the movie is when I started checking my DVD, so I was a little fuzzy on that. Basically, as soon as Esmeralda started talking, I rolled my eyes and popped in the DVD. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975/67 "2006-02-28T06:29:06Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > Unless you follow **Ellis** ’s reasoning in which case “the other night” just means the day before. > > I don’t get it **Ellis**. . .you put the whole time line together, presumably to show that Butch/Vincent actually met “the other day”. You rightfully conclude that it was just the previous day, and then just write it off. We have a name for people who ignore facts to fit their preconceived theories: the Bush administration. Whoa, ease off the throttle there big fella. No need to drag insults or politics into the Cafe. (The politics being that likening me to the Bush administration is an insult.) > [@](#): > > 1. Keying a car is a total bitch move. Vincent & Lance pretty say as much. > > 2. Butch ain’t no bitch. See, for example, what **LarryMudd** wrote up previously. > [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Every single storyline involved characters at a moral crossroads – and Butch and Jules are the only ones who make the right decision. Jules literally becomes an evangelist, presumably redeeming Hunny-bunny and Pum’kin before going off to “walk the earth,” and Butch risks his life to save his mortal enemy before riding off into the sunset on Grace. Everyone else gets a nice hot cup of Instant Karma. I disagree with this completely. Jules covers up a homicide _after_ he reaches enlightenment, endangering his friend’s marriage in the process. All’s well that ends well, but I’d hardly call Jules’s decisions “right”. Especially considering that he could have saved everyone in the diner from being robbed, but he gave that robbery his own personal stamp of approval, letting them leave with _everybody’s_ money except Vincent. As far as Butch being “not a bitch”, I read Butch as a definite bitch. To wit: - He throws a nice little bitchy tantrum when he realized that Fabienne forgot the watch. Throwing the tv across the room while screaming “stupid whore” at her is a bitch move. - He intentionally screwed Wallace by agreeing to throw the fight and then not doing so. First, why does Wallace think he can be trusted to go down in the fifth? Gotta be some punk in him to work with in order for Wallace to think he would do it. But it was all a premeditated plan, where he intended to win, pocket the money and run away and hide like a punk-ass bitch. Taking the entire section of movie involving Butch, I wouldn’t exactly classify him as a bitch, but I do consider him to be a scumbag. Easily one that would key somebody’s car. I don’t see much difference between keying a car and his tv-smashing tantrum. I mean, really, to hold up _anyone_ from Pulp Fiction as being a moral guy is bordering on the absurd. They certainly have their own personal value system, but calling them moral for that might be a stretch. Morality generally involves not killing people. Actually, here’s another example of being a bitch, this time from Vincent. When he’s holding the unconscious Mia on Lance’s doorstep, he says “If she dies, I will be forced to tell Marcellus that you let her die on your lawn.” Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn’t, but that’s a bitch thing to do, and shows that even Vincent is capable of devolving into being a punk when the situation calls for it. Butch clearly has anger issues, and he left the titty bar quite pissed off. I just don’t see it as a stretch. > [@](#): > > 1. There’s absolutely no indication that Butch did it but it seems like a couple of you have made it a pet theory which is puzzling. But since there is unsubstantial evidence to dispute it, it just kind of lays there. > > Really, the only piece of evidence that ISN’T complete conjecture is that Vincent said “the other day” and we know he ran into Butch “yesterday”. And that piece of evidence, you just write off as Vince being confused. > > Color me 😕 > > If you put your mind to it, you can probably come up with equally plausible scenarios in which Jules, Marcellus, the Bartender, Honey Bunny, Mr. Pink, or Jack Rabbit Slim keys it. I bet you can’t. My motivation in making the timeline was simply because I wanted to. Somebody upthread was wondering aloud what the earliest and latest scenes were, and I just wanted to write down for my own edification what the actual timeline was, and what narrative hints were in the movie to fill it in with. Your big objection seems to be with “the other day” referring to just yesterday. Keep in mind that the sun had set, risen, and set again in this timespan. I find it to be a very common and human thing to mix up how long ago recent events occurred. Sitting down to dinner on Wednesday night, someone recalling something that happened early Tuesday morning might be very likely to refer to it as the other day. Mia saying the other night, however, is a bit of a different animal, because that generally wouldn’t refer to last night. Yesterday morning, however, is pretty darn close to “the other day” once the sun goes down. Mostly, I think, people are tossing around the pet theory of Butch keying Vincent’s car because it’s fun. I know I’m not taking it very seriously. Certainly not as seriously as you seem to be taking the counter position. (You began by attacking me instead of my position, for example.) ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975/68 "2006-02-28T08:04:52Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > Mia saying the other night, however, is a bit of a different animal, because that generally wouldn’t refer to last night. Hate to break everyone’s bubble, but Mia does NOT say “the other night.” I just checked the DVD and verified that all she says is, “I never thanked you for dinner.” True, she does look too healthy to have just O.D.'d the previous evening. On the other hand, it’s pretty rare for junkies to be up walking around just an hour or two after receiving an adrenaline shot to the heart to stop a cardiac arrest. (Tarantino likes to take liberties in that regard, it seems.) Some more notes on the timeline: It’s 8:20 a.m. when Jules, Vincent & the dead body arrive at Jimmy’s house; or at least it is during the “Dead Nigger Storage” conversation, where you can see the clock on the kitchen wall. Driving from Toluca Lake to North Hollywood, disposing of a body, taking a cab to Hawthorne (south of Inglewood), eating, foiling a robbery, and somehow finding transportation to Marcellus’ titty bar all in 90 minutes seems foolishly optimistic. Waiting for the cab would take nearly 30 minutes alone, and it’s at least another 30 minute drive from The Valley to Hawthorne. They probably didn’t arrive at the bar until early afternoon, and possibly later. I always had the impression that Butch’s fight took place several days, if not weeks, after Vince & Mia’s date/The Bonnie Situation/etc. > [@Ellis Dee](#): > > I don’t see Butch as the most moral guy, later showing an aggressive lack of remorse for killing his opponent that borders on disdain. Not really. When Butch finds out that Floyd’s dead, he stops in his tracks, and quietly whispers, “Sorry about that, Floyd.” It’s clear to me that he’s at least momentarily upset about killing the guy (and certainly, it wasn’t his intent to do so.) Later on, his line to cab driver – “I don’t feel the least bit bad about it” – is merely bravado. > [@Little Nemo](#): > > So I guess we’re supposed to assume that the actress Kathy Griffin was almost run over by gangster Marcellus Wallace. It’s just a random Crazy Credit, like “Long Haired Yuppie Scum”. Hey, maybe it was Long Haired Yuppie Scum who keyed Vince’s car! The evidence is compelling, I tell ya! ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975/69 "2006-02-28T10:17:14Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Driving from Toluca Lake to North Hollywood, disposing of a body, taking a cab to Hawthorne (south of Inglewood), eating, foiling a robbery, and somehow finding transportation to Marcellus’ titty bar all in 90 minutes seems foolishly optimistic. Waiting for the cab would take nearly 30 minutes alone, and it’s at least another 30 minute drive from The Valley to Hawthorne. They probably didn’t arrive at the bar until early afternoon, and possibly later. Works for me; I have no knowledge of the distances or times involved. That puts a big damper on being able to write off “the other day.” Early yesterday morning is one thing; yesterday afternoon is a whole 'nother thing. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975/70 "2006-03-02T00:32:34Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > Of course, the only things in the movie are the things that are in the movie, but IIRC, in the “Trivia Track” on the DVD it notes that in the first cut, we see Vincent pulling in to the parking lot in his car and parking next to Butch’s car even though the rest of the lot is completely empty. Although the scene was cut in the theatrical release, it suggests to me that Butch did key Vincent’s car after their exchange at the bar. The continuity issue doesn’t bother me that much – there are a million ways to explain it, and this is Pulp Fiction we’re talking about, a film which wallows in purposeful continuity “errors.” > > What I’m more interested in is the unaswered question of why Butch and Vincent are so hostile to each other. Is it because Vincent has a premonition of their next meeting? Or do they have a history we don’t see? (Seems likely given that Vincent needles Butch about being a boxer, which most people off the street wouldn’t tend to know.) Personally, I choose to believe it’s some kind of [oedipal](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097778/) thing. > > –Cliffy Methinks that the premonition thing is a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig stretch. However, my own interpretation may be just as…confused? I didn’t see Vincent as being particularly hostile at the outset of this encounter. I just saw him as being curious and looking directly at Butch, who gets all bad. The “you looking at something, friend?” is an understood challenge, and that’s when Vincent gets tough. That’s my take. hh ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975/71 "2006-03-02T04:22:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Personally, I choose to believe it’s some kind of oedipal thing. “Butch, I am your father.” ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975/72 "2006-03-08T11:09:35Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > Jules covers up a homicide _after_ he reaches enlightenment, endangering his friend’s marriage in the process. No, he reached enlightenment in the diner. He was sitting there eating his muffin when he suddenly had what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity. Granted, that moment was brought about by what happened in Frank Whaley’s apartment, but Jules didn’t make the connection until after Marvin had been disposed of. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975/73 "2006-03-09T01:47:56Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > No, he reached enlightenment in the diner. He was sitting there eating his muffin when he suddenly had what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity. Granted, that moment was brought about by what happened in Frank Whaley’s apartment, but Jules didn’t make the connection until after Marvin had been disposed of. After which he could have easily prevented everyone in the diner from being robbed, but consciously acted to allow it anyway. Real enlightened. ---
**Author:** ![OneCut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@OneCut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCut)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975/74 "2006-03-09T03:06:34Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > After which he could have easily prevented everyone in the diner from being robbed, but consciously acted to allow it anyway. > > Real enlightened. I doubt that he could have prevented the robbery without bloodshed. It seems consistant with jules’ concept of enlightenment that the loss of a few wallets and cell phones is preferable to gunplay. Remember that he initially gave up his own wallet willingly and still gave up his money even after getting the upper hand. Given his background I chalk this up to an “honor among theives” theory that he incorporated into his enlightenment, which also explains why he couldn’t give up the breifcase. Loyalty is a value that would be worth killing for in such a system. ---
**Author:** ![Choco\_from\_the\_Harz\_mountains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Choco\_from\_the\_Harz\_mountains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Choco_from_the_Harz_mountains)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975/75 "2017-01-09T01:26:27Z")
The last thing Vince and Mia do after the ‘date/not date’ is shake hands on a promise to not ever tell anyone about what happened. Out on the Great Plains before the skin is pierced and the Rain Dance begins they say that actions speak louder than words, and Mia speaks volumes to fill the comfortable silence. “The only thing Antwan ever touched of mine was my hand, when he shook it. I met Antwan once – at my wedding – then never again. The truth is, nobody knows why Marsellus tossed Tony Rocky Horror out of that window except Marsellus and Tony Rocky Horror. But when you scamps get together, you’re worse than a sewing circle.” So maybe Mrs Wallace is hiding something. Is the cat out of the bag? ---
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975/76 "2017-01-09T02:12:25Z")
It always gives me the willies when someone revives a thread I don’t remember starting. Since I first posted this thread I’ve finished my PhD., gotten a real job, moved states twice, gotten married, had a kid, renovated a house, and written five novels. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975/77 "2017-01-09T02:49:39Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > Dunnit seem really out of character for Butch to key a guy’s car anyway? > > That’s a real bitch move. Butch has so much pride that he refuses to throw a fight even though it’s like signing his death warrant, but he keys a guy’s car – a guy whose ass he could squash? > [@Trunk](#): > > As to the hostility. Well, Vega starts it by staring him down, and, IMO, that’s just because Vega is one of those guys who has to be the toughest in the room. I’ve known guys just like that (at least in High School). They see a bigger guy around and they just gotta mouth off. > > Butch ain’t gonna back down because he knows he could floor the guy. Jumping in on an old thread here but I think the point was to show that both Butch and Vincent were acting like assholes. They were each looking for a fight. Butch initially figured he could challenge Vincent because he’s bigger than Vincent. Vincent figured he could challenge Butch because he worked for Marsellus Wallace and they were in his bar. Each guy thought he had an unfair advantage over the other and was acting like a bully. Then Marsellus called out to Vincent and Butch realized he was outmatched. He had to back down. (Tarantino explicitly said this in his notes in the script.) So going out and keying Vincent’s car in retaliation was in keeping with his character. It’s the same thing with the apartment scene later on. Vincent planned on ambushing Butch. But Butch instead caught Vincent with his pants down. The two scenes were essentially mirror images. Neither man wanted a fair fight. They each treated the other one as a loser they could push around. In the first scene, Butch though he had a clear advantage but it turned on him and Vincent had the advantage. In the second scene, the roles were reversed. And in both cases, it was Marsellus Wallace who turned the advantage around; by his presence in the first scene and by his absence in the second scene. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975/78 "2017-01-09T03:02:01Z")
> [@Ass\_For\_A\_Hat](#): > > I’ve got the scene up right now, and it’s not as you describe. Jules and Vincent arrive together and are both still in Jimmy’s clothes. Hence Paul the bartender’s line as he greets them at the door: > > “Vincent Vega, our man in Amsterdam. Jules Winfield, our man in Ingelwood. Get your asses on in here.” Doesn’t he also say “Damn, nigger, what’s up with those clothes?” :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975/79 "2017-01-09T03:09:43Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > After which he could have easily prevented everyone in the diner from being robbed, but consciously acted to allow it anyway. > > Real enlightened. He’s a fucking criminal too. Why would he do such a thing and call unnecessary attention to himself? \*"On the news tonight, a foiled robbery at a diner. Security cameras took \*\*these \*\*\*\*pictures \*_of the anonymous Good Samaritan who stopped the bandits in their tracks before leaving the scene with a companion…"_ ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975/80 "2017-01-09T04:23:24Z")
The scene in the dinner is Jules’s first action in “walking the earth”. Jules has quit being a gangster already, and money means nothing to him now. The suitcase is a different story. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-pulp-fiction/337975.md?page=5)