# In re: Atheists v. Christians debate **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 19, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153 "2015-10-19T17:19:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153/261 "2015-10-27T23:48:45Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > What do you think he is, some kinda shill for the Presbyterians? Yes. Or at least a shill for God. Or at least find out why it’s taking so long to [del]edit[/del] upload the debate. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153/262 "2015-10-28T02:22:30Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Has this thread turned into a Dougie pitting yet? Just checking. Apparently, but it’s already gotten to the point where he disappears for another six months. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153/263 "2015-10-28T03:15:30Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > What do you think he is, some kinda shill for the Presbyterians? > [@running\_coach](#): > > Yes. Or at least a shill for God. > Or at least find out why it’s taking so long to [del]edit[/del] upload the debate. Did I just whoosh you? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153/264 "2015-10-29T14:40:31Z")
Still no audio for the event…or any info about it whatsoever. In fact, [out of the last 25 events they’ve done, it is the only one that hasn’t been transcribed or released on audio.](http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?currpage=3&keyword=branchofhope&SourceOnly=true&currSection=sermonssource&subsetcat=date&subsetitem=2015&AudioOnly=false&sortby=) Gee-I wonder why? ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153/265 "2015-10-29T17:26:30Z")
The Devil erased it! ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153/266 "2015-10-29T17:31:23Z")
I found it: [The Debate](http://apologiaradio.com/the-existence-and-attributes-of-god-debate-audio/), all 3 hours of it. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153/267 "2015-10-29T17:39:56Z")
> [@August\_West](#): > > I found it: [The Debate](http://apologiaradio.com/the-existence-and-attributes-of-god-debate-audio/), all 3 hours of it. Thanks for finding it. I’m downloading it just in case this site doesn’t have permission from the sponsoring church. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153/268 "2015-10-29T17:47:10Z")
> [@August\_West](#): > > I found it: [The Debate](http://apologiaradio.com/the-existence-and-attributes-of-god-debate-audio/), all 3 hours of it. Thank u for your find! I will listen to it when I get home. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153/269 "2015-10-29T17:56:45Z")
And the church \*still \*doesn’t have it up. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153/270 "2015-10-29T18:01:31Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Thanks for finding it. > I’m downloading it just in case this site doesn’t have permission from the sponsoring church. Sye Ten Bruggencate… what an obnoxious sniveling Troll!!! The guy has one tactic: Sye: You say God does not exist!!! Are you absolutely 100% sure… we could be living in a matrix… you could be paralyzed and dreaming and not know it… are you absolutely 100% sure… !!! Fred: Well… ummm… I never really… no, I’m not 100% certain I am not paralyzed and this is all just a dream. I am 99.9% certain this is not a dream but 100%… no… Sye: See!!! You don’t know!!! But I know, because god is the ultimate source of reality… Belief in God in is the only way you can know anything!!! Fred: Umm… isn’t that circular reasoning? Sye: No it’s not… because God is the only true source of knowledge!!! Fred: Well, how do you know God is the only True source of Knowledge… Sye: Because I’m a christian and I have the Holy Spirit!!! Fred: Well, I think that it is kind of hard to answer any of these questions but… Sye: (interrupting) Yes, but you can’t know that!!! Do you know 100% there is no God??? Fred: Ok, but I found this contradiction in the bible the other day and… Sye: I only discuss scripture with other Christians! Unless you are led by the Holy Spirit you will never understand scripture… Fred: Well, ok, Sye… nice talking to you… see yo ulater… Sye: You are giving up??? See… I have just defeated another Atheist!!! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153/271 "2015-10-29T18:36:40Z")
Has it occurred to anyone to say “Well, if I’m not a brain in a jar, I don’t believe God exists, and if I _am_ a brain in a jar, God _couldn’t_ exist because there’s no room in my jar for him.” ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153/272 "2015-10-29T18:41:22Z")
They used the Matrix argument? Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153/273 "2015-10-29T18:45:23Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > They used the Matrix argument? Seriously? [This](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sye_Ten_Bruggencate) gives a pretty close account I’m not sure if he actually says “Matrix”… I was paraphrasing… it’s actually called prepositionalism… ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153/274 "2015-10-29T19:31:24Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > it’s actually called prepositionalism… [Presuppositionalism](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Presuppositionalism): > [@](#): > > Presuppositionalism is the idea that only the Christian worldview can account for logic, morality, science, induction, consciousness itself, and peanut brittle, and that all other worldviews are absurd. Presuppositionalists often go further and assert that classical apologetics and evidential apologetics are sinful and blasphemous, as they savor of “autonomy” and make human reason the judge of God’s existence. > > According to the presuppositionalist, nonbelievers (which term, in their mouth, very often includes everyone from atheists to other Christians), must assert the Reformed/Westminster Confession worldview in order to deny it; essentially, this is an accusation of stealing the concept, asserted by way of any of a number of the Transcendental argument for God family of arguments. Presuppositionalism is an attempt to argue indirectly for God, rather than directly as classicists and evidentialists do, by trying to prove “the impossibility of the contrary,” i.e., attempting a reductio ad absurdum on the opponent’s worldview via internal critique. > > The argument goes something like this: > > ``` > Old-School Apologist: Ears up, sinners! Here's an argument that God exists. > Recalcitrant Sinner: That argument's a pile of bunk! Here's why. > Old-School Apologist: Oh. Drat. > Presuppositional Apologist: Fear not, lions of Christ; here comes the new broom! Ears up, sinners! You say all the old-school arguments for God's existence are bunk? > Recalcitrant Sinner: Yep! > Presuppositional Apologist: Well, your refutations don't hold water, because they're grounded in the false presupposition that God doesn't exist. > Recalcitrant Sinner: Uh, no, they're not. > Presuppositional Apologist: They're grounded in a false presupposition, I say! Now if you'd just presuppose that God exists, it's obvious that God exists! > Recalcitrant Sinner: And you say we use circular logic... > > ``` > > Extension: transcendental argument for the existence of God > > ``` > Presuppositional Apologist: Did you mention logic? Here is something new for you: every time you mention Laws of Logic, morality and science you already presuppose God's existence, because knowledge, logic, morality and science cannot exist without presupposing God. > Recalcitrant Sinner: That argument's also a pile of bunk! Defining the reference frame for Logic/morality/knowledge/science, even if it presupposes god, does not necessarily imply its existence[1]. > Presuppositional Apologist: See, you just gave me more proof that God exists because you are using God-created logic, God-created science and God-created morality! > Recalcitrant Sinner: But if that's true, the exact opposite of what you argue can be constructed using the exact same arguments, which means your argument's a pile of bunk, as I said! > Presuppositional Apologist: Blasphemer! If God said 2+2=5, then we've got five eyes between us! > Recalcitrant Sinner: Hello, fellows in white coats? We need you over here pronto. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153/275 "2015-10-29T20:19:31Z")
Still listening but it seems the argument so far is that the debate and being an atheist is not possible without God. Wow, good proof. : old rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153/276 "2015-10-29T21:16:13Z")
I’m listening to it intermittently. The theists make their assumption that God exists and everything that springs from that assumption is proof of that assumption, and if something seems to challenge or disprove that assumption… so what, atheists say we evolved from _fish!_ ewwww! ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153/277 "2015-10-29T21:46:12Z")
The Christian side really seems obsessed with eating babies. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153/278 "2015-10-29T22:22:46Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > so what, atheists say we evolved from _fish!_ ewwww! Not just any fish but a retard fish. Also, a lot of buttsex. Mr. Garrison explains. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/BL9S-TUikfg/maxresdefault.jpg "South Park - Mr.Garrison's Evolution Theory") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BL9S-TUikfg) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153/279 "2015-10-29T22:41:39Z")
I’ve submitted a comment at August West’s link that is now “awaiting moderation”. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153/280 "2015-10-29T22:45:36Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > [Presuppositionalism](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Presuppositionalism): This argument is precisely designed so that those who use god as the basis for any of their belief will accept the circular argument that god is the basis of belief while those who trust logic will realize its a load of hooey. So it sounds like my prediction was right > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I also predict that no one attending will change their opinion on the matter and both sides will come away firmly convinced that their side won the debate. Makes me think of the following parable (based on 1st [Kings](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Kings+18%3A22-38&version=NIV) 18: 22-38) An atheist who was getting tired of being bothered by proselytizers knocking on his door challenges the local preacher to a contest. Stacks of wood were set up in the atheists yard, that each would try to light. The preacher would light his through prayer while the atheist would use whatever means he wanted. then the preacher would tell his congregation how it all worked out. The preacher prayed with all his might that the pile on the left would light but nothing happened. Meanwhile the atheist poured a bottle of gasoline on the bonfire on the right and lit it up with a bic lighter from his pocket and it went up in an instant. The atheist was feeling rather smug, but the next Sunday afternoon hundreds of people from miles around were pounding on his door demanding to see where the miracle had taken place. When the atheist confronted the preacher and demanded to know what was happening the preacher said that he had told his followers all about the contest, he only changed one minor detail. He decided that the story fit his sermon better if his pile was the one on the right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-re-atheists-v-christians-debate/735153.md?page=15)