# In Reference to Black Irish **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [May 13, 2002, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-reference-to-black-irish/108791 "2002-05-13T12:40:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![hookmom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bbe5ce/32.png) [@hookmom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hookmom)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2002, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-reference-to-black-irish/108791/1 "2002-05-13T12:40:31Z")
Ya. I digress on that one. The Spanish Armada DID in fact invade the Southern Ireland area. That’s why the dark ones are down south. The redheads are up north…that is where the viking blood comes in. Now…as far as the Irish over in Ireland referring to the term “Black Irish”…um…I think you may be right. Most of my friends from Ireland refer to people like me who are dark as “Gypsies”…so, my guess is that many of the dark ones are the gypsy irish.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2002, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-reference-to-black-irish/108791/2 "2002-05-13T14:03:46Z")
Welcome to the SDMB, and thank thee for posting thy comment. Please include a link to Cecil’s column if it’s on the Straight Dope web site. To include a link, it can be as simple as including the web page location in thy post (make sure there is a space **before** and **after** the text of the URL). Cecil’s columns can be found on-line at these links: [Who are the “black Irish”? (30-Jul-1993)](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_077.html) The column ( **including** Slug Signorino’s illustration) can also be found on pages 77-78 of Cecil Adams’ book «[_Triumph of the Straight Dope (1999)_](https://securesite.chireader.com/cgi-bin/dopestore/buystuff.bat#Triumph)». _and_ [Do some Irish names come from Spanish Armada survivors?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_111.html) The column can also be found on pages 111-113 of Cecil Adams’ book «[_The Straight Dope (1984; reissued 1986, 1998)_](https://securesite.chireader.com/cgi-bin/dopestore/buystuff.bat#tsd)». * * * moderator, «[**Comments on Cecil’s Columns**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=1)» ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2002, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-reference-to-black-irish/108791/3 "2002-05-13T14:30:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hookmom \* > \*\*Ya. I digress on that one. The Spanish Armada DID in fact invade the Southern Ireland area. That’s why the dark ones are down south. The redheads are up north…that is where the viking blood comes in. > > Now…as far as the Irish over in Ireland referring to the term “Black Irish”…um…I think you may be right. Most of my friends from Ireland refer to people like me who are dark as “Gypsies”…so, my guess is that many of the dark ones are the gypsy irish.😃 \*\* Hi! 🙂 Welcome to the SDMB. Around here we have a tradition. If a person asserts something is true, we ask for a _cite._ That is, for example, if you say the people who live on a certain island are all 3 feet tall, we ask you to mention a book or link to a website that supports your claim. This isn’t just for _you_ , we more or less expect it from everybody. Please provide cites for your ideas that: [list=a] [li]The Spanish invaded Ireland, ever.[/li][li]The involvement of , if any, Gypsies in Irish ancestory.[/li][/list=a] thank you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-reference-to-black-irish/108791/4 "2002-05-14T01:11:56Z")
There were a few threads concerning that column which we did previous to now.[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=78133&highlight=black+irish](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=78133&highlight=black+irish) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=1826&highlight=black+irish](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=1826&highlight=black+irish) I didn’t go back and read them, but quite often new questions have been answered in old threads about old columns. Give it a try. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-reference-to-black-irish/108791/5 "2002-05-14T02:47:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor \* > [li]The Spanish invaded Ireland, ever.[/li] **Bosda** - I suspect the OP was probably referring to the mythical ‘Milesian Hypothesis’ as below: [http://www.historyireland.com/magazine/current.html](http://www.historyireland.com/magazine/current.html) - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-reference-to-black-irish/108791/6 "2002-05-14T15:09:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tamerlane \* > **I suspect the OP was probably referring to the mythical ‘Milesian Hypothesis’…** The OP said “The Spanish Armada invaded Ireland.” I don’t think that has anything to do with Milesius. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-reference-to-black-irish/108791/7 "2002-05-14T21:45:58Z")
**Nametag** : Right you are, I must have had a mental hiccup there :). **hookmom** : So okay, I guess the question still stands - What’s your cite for the Armada landing in Ireland? If they did why would you suppose large numbers of the sailors would have interbred with the locals? And they had, why would such a minuscule addition to the genetic diversity of the population have a profound effect on local physiognomy? - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-reference-to-black-irish/108791/8 "2002-05-15T17:27:21Z")
[http://communities.msn.com/SpanishArmadaIrelandCountySligo](http://communities.msn.com/SpanishArmadaIrelandCountySligo) Apparently, there were 3 armada vessels wrecked off the coast of Sligo, which is in the north east of Ireland [http://www.historybuff.com/library/refspain.html](http://www.historybuff.com/library/refspain.html) Another reference to Armada vessels sunk near Ireland. There would have been a lot of trade and contact between Ireland and Spain pre Armada. I myself am black Irish and it dosen’t refer to gypsies at all. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2002, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-reference-to-black-irish/108791/9 "2002-05-19T14:07:43Z")
My bf refers to his heritage as “black Irish” and IMO the black refers to his moods… 😉 - istara, whose flame-haired Manx granny was possibly the result of some Viking raping and pillaging aeons back ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/71e660/32.png) [@Big\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Willy)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2002, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-reference-to-black-irish/108791/10 "2002-05-25T10:34:20Z")
> [@](#): > > I have also heard it said the black Irish were the first settlers of Ireland–maybe the Phoenicians. The red Irish, meanwhile, were descendants of the Normans, and > the blond Irish are descended from the Vikings. One of many drawbacks to this theory is that it seems to leave the Gaels completely out of the picture. Not really. We go back to the Milesian Hypothesis. According to the myth, the “Sons of Miled” were the last race to invade Ireland, the ones who subdued the Tuatha de Danaan and consequently became the ancestors of the “modern” Irish (bear in mind that the myths in their recorded form date from the 1st millennium AD, so terms like “modern” are extremely relative). Celticists in the 19th-20th Centuries, seeking to prove that the Irish invasion cycle was a record of real events, argued long and hard about where these Milesians could have come from, with Iberia being only one possibility. A more obvious, and intriguing, option is that they came from the Phoenician city-state of Miletus. We know from archaeological evidence that the Phoenicians travelled all across Europe during the 1st millennium BC, trading for Cornish tin and other exotica. It’s quite possible that a colony existed in Ireland - and these people, of course, would have been dark-haired sub-Caucasian types rather than the blond- and red-haired Teutons of inland and northeastern Europe. In short, whether the Red Irish are remnants of the Aes Sidhe or later Viking invaders, it’s the Black Irish who share a racial origin with other inhabitants of the West European Celtic Fringe - Galicians, Catalans, Bretons, Cornish, Manx, Welsh and Gaels. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2002, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-reference-to-black-irish/108791/11 "2002-05-26T20:41:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Big Willy \* > > A more obvious, and intriguing, option is that they came from the Phoenician city-state of Miletus. We know from archaeological evidence that the Phoenicians travelled all across Europe during the 1st millennium BC, trading for Cornish tin and other exotica. Except that I believe that Miletus was mostly Ionian Greek, rather than Phoenician. They _were_ active as colony builders, though. But I believe their focus, naturally enough, was primarily the Black Sea region. Regardless, maintaining a substantial ( substantial enough to significantly impact native bloodlines ) colony, as opposed to a trading post, in southern Ireland, would have been extremely difficult. No impossible, perhaps, but difficult. Would the benefit be significant enough? [http://www.turizm.net/cities/miletus/](http://www.turizm.net/cities/miletus/) - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2002, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-reference-to-black-irish/108791/12 "2002-05-27T05:33:18Z")
Wasn’t it the French who invaded the south of Ireland? I believe it was in the 18th century, in supprt of one of the rebellions. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2002, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-reference-to-black-irish/108791/13 "2002-05-27T18:40:58Z")
Whether or not the Spanish, French or even Gypsies invaded Ireland, I doubt that it has any influence over the prevailence of **black** hair among the Irish. After all, **black** hair is found on every continent, among all of the world’s ethnic groups. It’s too common to represent anything in particular. ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/71e660/32.png) [@Big\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Willy)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2002, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-reference-to-black-irish/108791/14 "2002-05-31T23:28:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor \* > \*\*After all, **black** hair is found on every continent, among all of the world’s ethnic groups. It’s too common to represent anything in particular. \*\* What’s remarkable about the European gene pool, though, is the variety of hair colours OTHER than black/dark brown. Maybe it’s something in the water, or maybe at some point in the distant past a distinct racial group migrated into territory previously dominated by people whose hair was a different colour. Some palaeontologists have hypothesised, for example, that Neanderthal Man might have had red hair - which would push the Black Irish Invasion theory even further back than anyone’s suggested thus far. ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/71e660/32.png) [@Big\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Willy)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2002, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-reference-to-black-irish/108791/15 "2002-05-31T23:34:20Z")
Eek. Sorry about the multiple post above. My connection’s playing up for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![gaelforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@gaelforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaelforce)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2002, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-reference-to-black-irish/108791/16 "2002-06-02T16:41:51Z")
Hello 🙂 I’m new, and saw a show on the History Channel about the Spanish Armada, which prompted me to research things and, well, I was led here. I have a question about my background that I REALLY need an answer to. I am Irish and English. My question is about my (late) Grandfather, who came to America at age 4 from Southern England - sorry, I do not know which town. He had dark, tan skin, black hair, and dark brown (almost black) eyes. His son, my father, looks exactly like him, as does my sister. I have thick dark brown hair and green eyes (from my Mother, who is 100% Irish, and burns all the time ) but I get very tan in the Summer-to the suprise of others LOL…and it’s not hard forme to get one, either. So, my question to you is - WHAT’S UP WITH THAT? Is it the Spanish thing, or what? Did the Spanish invade Southern England? If not, then WHY do people in my family have this appearance?? Thank you in advance for any theory/answer(s) you may have. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-reference-to-black-irish/108791/17 "2002-06-03T10:13:18Z")
Okay, random guessing without knowing your own heritage. Yep, I’m sure we’ll be able to do better. 😉 Consider that Africans have been cross-bred into European stock since the time of the Romans (if not before), and I think you can see there’s plenty of opportunity for your English ancestors to have some residual African traits. Most likely within a dozen generations. Not to mention, certain elements of the French are darker haired and skinned. This would allow influx from the Norman invasion of England. And of course there’s possible Spanish or Greek or italian influences in the last few generations. Have you done any geneology? That would provide a more conclusive answer than asking us what the possibilities _might_ be. ---
**Author:** ![gaelforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@gaelforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaelforce)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-reference-to-black-irish/108791/18 "2002-06-03T11:28:32Z")
Um, excuse me - but my family HAS tried to do a Genealogy on our family, and the records only go so far. I just thought I’d throw this question out there, since it seemed like the people on here were very intelligent and knew about this subject. Whatever. Oh, and I could’ve done WITHOUT your sarcasm. Have a nice day. 🙂