# In regards to radical skepticism **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 11, 2017, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296 "2017-11-11T07:11:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296/121 "2017-11-20T02:36:15Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > You’re saying that, “according to them”, beliefs cause grief. That’s a _belief_. > > You, uh, get that, right? > > More to the point, it’s apparently a belief they reached by evaluating experiences; as far as I can tell, they’ve _noticed_ that beliefs cause grief the way they’ve _noticed_ that dogmatists wear themselves out with theorizing. Right? > > And you mentioned their assorted testimonials, about how various of them claim to have achieved tranquility by use of this approach; presumably, you mentioned that because you believe you can learn from their example – and, presumably, _they_ mentioned it because they’d experienced it first-hand. > > So: what does all of that tell you? That folks in this world of appearances manage to notice stuff and reach conclusions, forming beliefs they then announce? I’m just wondering how people, having reading everything I have on the subject (which has been posted in this thread), can still think differently. What logic is there? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296/122 "2017-11-20T03:10:43Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I was thinking more like what sort of logic or reason people have that prevents them from falling to this, not the pedestrian responses of mental health or obsessive behavior. Asked and answered. Why do you refuse to acknowledge that what you’re suffering from is not a lack of the right sort of logic or reason but what very much seems like an obsessive mental health disorder? You are looking for answers in all the wrong places and continue to be disappointed. Are you familiar with the definition of crazy? It’s doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. Perhaps it’s time you try the “pedestrian” approach with a qualified professional? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296/123 "2017-11-20T03:16:39Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > It’s not really solipsism. It’s also getting at the fact that since there are many points of view, one cannot call any of them truth. There is a point of view that 2 + 2 = 4. There is another that 2 + 2 = 5. Tell me you can’t call one the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296/124 "2017-11-20T03:18:07Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I’m just wondering how people, having reading everything I have on the subject (which has been posted in this thread), can still think differently. What logic is there? I have very specifically pointed out how some of what you copied and pasted is wrong, and in fact nonsense. And you don’t respond. Why is that? Are you so committed to this garbage philosophy that you don’t see its flaws? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296/125 "2017-11-20T03:29:55Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I’m just wondering how people, having reading everything I have on the subject (which has been posted in this thread), can still think differently. What logic is there? Most of what you have written in this thread is trite, superficial, and of no philosophical value. The logic is: you have fallen prey to a fallacy, and a banal one indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296/126 "2017-11-20T03:51:15Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Most of what you have written in this thread is trite, superficial, and of no philosophical value. The logic is: you have fallen prey to a fallacy, and a banal one indeed. What fallacy is that? So far I haven’t see anything that doesn’t already fall into what pyrro was talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296/127 "2017-11-20T03:53:37Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I have very specifically pointed out how some of what you copied and pasted is wrong, and in fact nonsense. And you don’t respond. Why is that? Are you so committed to this garbage philosophy that you don’t see its flaws? no, but what you posted was more about economic value. It also didn’t refute their point about things not being more valuable than another. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296/128 "2017-11-20T03:59:48Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Asked and answered. > > Why do you refuse to acknowledge that what you’re suffering from is not a lack of the right sort of logic or reason but what very much seems like an obsessive mental health disorder? > > You are looking for answers in all the wrong places and continue to be disappointed. Are you familiar with the definition of crazy? It’s doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. Perhaps it’s time you try the “pedestrian” approach with a qualified professional? Because it’s not. Technically there is some truth in how beliefs and opinions can cause suffering. Like believing someone cared about you only to learn they didn’t, or those who murder others in the name of their own beliefs. Or how people argue over different points of view, I think politics fits in here. Even the points they said about how objects change based on angle of view or distance means the senses are in doubt, anything we say about the “true nature” of things is beyond us. They make reference to “evident matters”. But I don’t know what they mean by that. But I can’t deny they are right, people fight and squabble over different interpretations of the same thing. That desire can be painful if unmet, or the fulfillment we get from them isn’t what we expect. That preferring one thing over another is also suffering since we long for what we want and are distressed when it comes to the bad. Unless you can address their points on that, then I don’t think you’ll be much help. The pedestrian approach can’t answer that. Everywhere I look I can see how they are right about their remarks, how can I possibly dismiss them? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296/129 "2017-11-20T04:30:48Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I’m just wondering how people, having reading everything I have on the subject (which has been posted in this thread), can still think differently. What logic is there? Why do you keep asking people to waste their time trying to convince you to stop believing something that you’re determined to believe? If you think Pyrrhonism is so great then you’re free to be a Pyrrhonist. The appropriate forum for witnessing is Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296/130 "2017-11-20T07:59:44Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I was thinking more like what sort of logic or reason people have that prevents them from falling to this, not the pedestrian responses of mental health or obsessive behavior. Knowable or not, reliable or not, meaningful or not, ultimately you’re stuck here living life, feeling the things you do. What is the value of convincing yourself that it’s all meaningless or impossible to lock down on a factual reality? Regardless if that’s a perfectly reasonable and fair way of portraying reality, it’s not particularly useful for what you’ve actually got to deal with in life. As said, you’re here doing it anyways. Don’t fuck with others too much, but beyond that, enjoy yourself. If you enjoy thinking philosophical thoughts, then do that. But if you’re just feeling anxious about the meaning of everything, then you’re probably just suffering anxiety, not on the path to some greater awareness. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296/131 "2017-11-20T10:02:49Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I was thinking more like what sort of logic or reason people have that prevents them from falling to this, not the **pedestrian responses of mental health or obsessive behavior.** Dopers, please note this. No one agrees with his circular logic, many, many have commented on **Machinaforce’s** need to address his / her compulsive behavior and this is where he/she stands. **Voyager** : seriously, why engage him/her point by point? You’re enabling them, yes? Do you really think you or anyone is going to say “42!!” and that will be The Answer and he/she’ll be done? Really?! You’re stuck **Machinaforce**. No one here can get you unstuck. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296/132 "2017-11-20T10:12:14Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > But how can I be sure evidence points to this or that? Well, one way of being sure is jumping off a building to see whether gravity is real. And then we can follow it up with walking in front of a red light to see if cars are real. :rolleyes: You don’t live your life that way. Nobody does (at least, not very long). At some level, you understand that reality exists, and we can learn things about it. If you didn’t, you’d end up very dead very quickly. Reject these axioms on a conscious level, and you are stuck, unable to say or do anything. But you _cannot_ reject them on a subconscious level. Your brain does not work that way. At some level, you understand and accept that we are here, and that we will talk to you. Would you be writing these posts otherwise? May I recommend that the next philosophy book you read be [this one](https://www.readthesequences.com/)? I don’t know if it will help, but going to a level slightly more basic and reduced than the problems you’re currently struggling with might help you a little bit. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296/133 "2017-11-20T11:41:27Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Technically there is some truth in how beliefs and opinions can cause suffering. Is that a _belief?_ Is it an _opinion?_ Answer ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to each. > [@](#): > > Like believing someone cared about you only to learn they didn’t, The whole point of that tale is that you “learn they didn’t”: you _were_ acting based on mere appearance – but then you learned what the reality of the situation actually _was_. Is that the ‘example’ story you really want to go with, here? > [@](#): > > But I can’t deny they are right, people fight and squabble over different interpretations of the same thing. That desire can be painful if unmet, or the fulfillment we get from them isn’t what we expect. That preferring one thing over another is also suffering since we long for what we want and are distressed when it comes to the bad. You say you can’t deny that they’re right; is that merely your interpretation, or is it a matter of actual rock-solid _fact?_ You say unmet desires can be painful, and that fulfillment of desire can turn out to be an experience we weren’t expecting, and that preferences lead to suffering and longing and distress – so, first off, do you believe those claims are all _facts?_ And, second, did you take the time to mention all of that because you (a) sincerely _desire_ to minimize pain and distress and suffering, and (b) think you can learn from what they’ve said, by trying it out and seeing whether it works? _These are simple questions._ You should be able to answer them. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296/134 "2017-11-20T12:49:39Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Because it’s not. … Unless you can address their points on that, then I don’t think you’ll be much help. The pedestrian approach can’t answer that. Yes. It is. It’s been addressed and explained to you. By multiple people. In every thread you’ve start on the same subject. Over and over. Obsessively asking the same questions, seeking different answers. That’s completely irrational behavior. What you call “the pedestrian approach” is the only answer that you’ve not accepted and likely the only answer that is most likely to be of any benefit to you. The only one that stands a chance get your obsessive thinking under control. I’m starting to think you don’t want to find “truth & reality”. I’m starting to think you deliberately avoid doing so. > [@Machinaforce](#): > > Everywhere I look I can see how they are right about their remarks, how can I possibly dismiss them? Yet you have no trouble dismissing the one thing that is most likely to help you: Professional Mental Therapy. Where is the logic in that? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296/135 "2017-11-20T12:56:37Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > They make reference to “evident matters”. But I don’t know what they mean by that. “Evident matters” are what they take on faith, and from which they conclude that you shouldn’t take anything on faith. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296/136 "2017-11-20T14:16:07Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I would like to know the secret that keeps others from folding to this. Existentialism is my secret. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296/137 "2017-11-20T14:18:53Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > May I recommend that the next philosophy book you read be [this one](https://www.readthesequences.com/)? Reading recommendations are wasted on this one, as far as I can tell… ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296/138 "2017-11-20T17:29:00Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > What fallacy is that? So far I haven’t see anything that doesn’t already fall into what pyrro was talking about. Your major fallacy in this thread is: I don’t believe anything. It’s all illusion. You can never know anything. I completely believe in what was written in this book this guy wrote. If you really don’t believe anything, then that book is just as wrong as everything else. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296/139 "2017-11-20T17:39:23Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > no, but what you posted was more about economic value. It also didn’t refute their point about things not being more valuable than another. The point, which you obviously don’t get, is that there is no way of assigning values without them being relative to something else. The writer of that passage treats value as an inherent property of something - which is nonsense. Try applying critical thinking to what you are reading, and it might help. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296/140 "2017-11-20T17:44:48Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Because it’s not. > > Technically there is some truth in how beliefs and opinions can cause suffering. Like believing someone cared about you only to learn they didn’t, or those who murder others in the name of their own beliefs. Or how people argue over different points of view, I think politics fits in here. On the other hand lack of belief can cause pain also. If you are in a relationship and tell your partner that you suspend belief on whether his or hers professions of love are true, you will soon be alone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-regards-to-radical-skepticism/801296.md?page=8)