# In San Jose, Poor Find Doors to Library Closed **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 31, 2016, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694 "2016-03-31T04:38:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/181 "2016-04-09T06:15:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t know about you - I am fully aware of what life is like for the working poor, having been part of it. Somehow or other I managed to return my library books on time. Really? As a kid or parent? How much was _your_ weekly allowance? > [@](#): > > No, their parents (or parent) are not more likely to be working harder than me - I work full time year round, and 74% of poor households in the US do not have a full-time, year-round worker. Lovely counter to something I never said. “Longer” != “harder”. > [@](#): > > Absolutely. We should set up some kind of an institution where they could borrow books for free. So the thinking here is - we _should_ set up free libraries, because these kids don’t have money. But if, for whatever reason, they can’t return the books, we should _then charge them money_ we already know they don’t have. Yep, really logical, there. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/182 "2016-04-09T06:20:17Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > How would a public library get the money to replace non-returned books by a kid cleaning the school gym Saves the school money on cleaning, school passes that saving on to the city, city passes it on to the library > [@](#): > > or writing a book report? That’s not about getting money, it’s about teaching a lesson, just like detention or extra homework assignments. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/183 "2016-04-09T11:38:47Z")
The schools already have cleaning staff they pay to clean the buildings and grounds. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/184 "2016-04-09T12:14:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So the thinking here is - we _should_ set up free libraries, because these kids don’t have money. But if, for whatever reason, they can’t return the books, we should _then charge them money_ we already know they don’t have. Yep, really logical, there. You seem to believe that banning these kids from using the library is an unfortunate side effect of an irrational demand. It’s not. If they take the library’s books and don’t give them back, and cannot or will not pay to mitigate the harm they have caused by taking the library’s books and not giving them back, _we don’t want them in the library_. It is _desirable_ for those who have proven themselves unworthy of trust to be cut off so that they cannot do any further harm. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/185 "2016-04-09T13:35:28Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Really? As a kid or parent? How much was _your_ weekly allowance? As an adult. I didn’t get an allowance from anyone. I also didn’t spend any money on library fines, since I managed to return my books on time. > [@](#): > > Lovely counter to something I never said. “Longer” != “harder”. Yes, obviously it is harder to work full time than part time. Your claim was that poor parents can’t bring their children back to the library to return the books because they live in tents and are working for minimum wage. Then, if they have the time to spare to get to the library to borrow the books, even though they live in tents and work part-time, why don’t they have the time to get to the library to return the books? > [@](#): > > So the thinking here is - we _should_ set up free libraries, because these kids don’t have money. But if, for whatever reason, they can’t return the books, we should _then charge them money_ we already know they don’t have. Yep, really logical, there. Basically, yes. Offer a free service lending books. People have to use it in a minimally responsible way - i.e. they have to bring back the books, so someone else can have a chance to read them. If someone cannot act in a minimally responsible way - they manage to get to the library to borrow the books, but cannot seem to muster the effort to get to the library to return them - then they don’t get to use the service. This frees up resources for other people to use the books. If you don’t have the money, either bring the books back on time, or don’t use the library. Seems pretty straightforward to me. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/186 "2016-04-09T13:50:46Z")
> [@treis](#): > > So realistically, we aren’t looking at a big chunk of the budget. Lost books should be a part of the cost of doing business for a library. Similar to how a steak house is going to have some steaks sent back or a store is going to experience theft. You put in policies to stop gross abuse and budget an appropriate amount to compensate. No business is going to drive away 40% of their users over 1.5% of their cost. And neither should the library. If 40% of a business’s “users” were taking advantage of their goods and services without paying the associated fees, that business would be happy to see them driven away – likely in the back of a squad car. A public library is not a business. If you want to see public libraries run like businesses, get ready to see them stop serving the poor entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/187 "2016-04-09T15:22:31Z")
I’m anxiously awaiting the next thread on this topic, in which parking tickets are exposed as a right-wing conspiracy to punish poor people. After all, poor people are often forced to work extremely long hours by their evil capitalist bosses, so they can’t always return to their cars before the meter expires. Levying $25 fines on these poor people, and turning them over to collections if they don’t pay, is surely a sign of sociopathic antipathy toward the plight of the downtrodden. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/188 "2016-04-09T15:45:30Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > It is _desirable_ for those who have proven themselves unworthy of trust to be cut off so that they cannot do any further harm. But again, why are people in San Jose, particularly, so untrustworthy? Is it really them, or is there something about the library policy itself that is contributing to the scale here? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/189 "2016-04-09T16:35:35Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > The schools already have cleaning staff they pay to clean the buildings and grounds. Who, I’m sure, couldn’t use any help at all, ever… > [@Grumman](#): > > You seem to believe that banning these kids from using the library is an unfortunate side effect of an irrational demand. I am under no such illusion. This is San Jose and Silicon Valley, a city and region that even I, halfway around the world, have picked up as having “Fuck the Poor” as its unofficial motto. I don’t think dis-empowering poor kids is a side effect. I’m pretty sure it’s a welcome primary one. > [@](#): > > It’s not. If they take the library’s books and don’t give them back, and cannot or will not pay to mitigate the harm they have caused by taking the library’s books and not giving them back, _we don’t want them in the library_. It is _desirable_ for those who have proven themselves unworthy of trust to be cut off so that they cannot do any further harm. _Kids_, though. By definition, not really fully competent or responsible for their own actions. You’re acting as though they can’t be taught better. As though they’re permanently and irretrievably broken people. Which strikes me as a self-fulfilling prophecy. > [@Shodan](#): > > As an adult. A parental adult? Because otherwise your experience of being a working poor parent or child of same is…zilch. So who cares if you, as a poor adult, got your books in on time? We’re not discussing adults’ late fines. > [@](#): > > Yes, obviously it is harder to work full time than part time. Bullshit. Entirely dependent on the work you do. Full-time office work is in no way as hard as being a part-time day labourer. > [@](#): > > Your claim was that poor parents can’t bring their children back to the library to return the books because they live in tents and are working for minimum wage. No, _my_ claim was that they didn’t have the money for the fines, even if they could get to the library. By the time they find out about the fines, it would already be too late (because they’re _not around in the daytime_ to do that “active parenting” all the _bourgeoisie_ are so great at). It’s the kids who are borrowing the books and not returning them, and I already acknowledge that could be from them being, you know, dumb kids. So why you’re then going on about the parents borrowing anything, I have no idea. > [@](#): > > People have to use it in a minimally responsible way Let’s remind ourselves here - “people”, in this case, being _kids_. _Renowned_ for their smart unassisted decision-making and uncannily prescient ability to predict the possible outcomes of their actions. > [@](#): > > If you don’t have the money, either bring the books back on time, or don’t use the library. Seems pretty straightforward to me. Yep. If no one ever parented you properly, or you don’t have adequate resources or, god forbid, something happened to the books outside you control, well, sucks to be you, kid. Because you must just be a shiftless no-goodnik and, unfortunately, there are no longer any Union Workhouses…best we can do is stop you from _reading_. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/190 "2016-04-09T16:38:49Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m anxiously awaiting the next thread on this topic, in which parking tickets are exposed as a right-wing conspiracy to punish poor people. After all, poor people are often forced to work extremely long hours by their evil capitalist bosses, so they can’t always return to their cars before the meter expires. > > Levying $25 fines on these poor people, and turning them over to collections if they don’t pay, is surely a sign of sociopathic antipathy toward the plight of the downtrodden. Bwaahaa. Like poor people can afford to park in downtown in the first place… ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/191 "2016-04-09T17:06:09Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Bwaahaa. Like poor people can afford to park in downtown in the first place… That’s going to depend on the city, I think. In Memphis, TN probably not; in West Memphis, AR, or Jackson, TN, it’s no big deal. And unless you’re having legal troubles, there is nothing in Memphis that one MUST do downtown anyway. Anyway, the fact that poor persons cannot afford certain things is not a conspiracy. It’s just life. I have a cousin I’ve mentioned hereabouts whose broke as fuck and has trouble paying for cell phone service, so I gave him a smart phone I didn’t need and another cousin added him on to her family plan, with the implicit understanding that he’d be only allowed a gig a month of data. are the facts that he doesn’t have the newest smartphone and that he can’t watch YouTube videos on his phone unjust, unfair, or oppresive? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/192 "2016-04-09T18:37:52Z")
No, I don’t think the cleaning service, often provided by a contractor, really wants to be supervising kjds who are doing community service. I don’t think an in-house janitorial staff would be all that keen on having that responsibility either. Then, too, most blue collar workers I know are deeply suspicious of anything that gives management an excuse to cut their hours or furlough some people. Community service cleaning staff does just that. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/193 "2016-04-11T01:54:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Saves the school money on cleaning, school passes that saving on to the city, city passes it on to the libraryThat’s not about getting money, it’s about teaching a lesson, just like detention or extra homework assignments. Then a better way would be to have them volunteer at the _library_ itself. It would probably be more of a learning experience, because then they could see the impact of lost books, late fees, etc. It should certainly teach them to be more responsible. And unlike the schools, libraries usually welcome volunteers. ---
**Author:** ![flatlined](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eb9ed0/32.png) [@flatlined](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flatlined)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/194 "2016-04-11T02:14:32Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Then a better way would be to have them volunteer at the _library_ itself. It would probably be more of a learning experience, because then they could see the impact of lost books, late fees, etc. It should certainly teach them to be more responsible. > > And unlike the schools, libraries usually welcome volunteers. As I mentioned up-thread, that is I paid off fines when I was a kid. I learned a LOT of respect for public resources while doing it. The empty slots in the collections that were never refilled were a big learning experience for me. As an adult, I am able to return my books on time, but when my car eats a CD out of an audio book, I replace the audio book because I know that if I don’t, someone else won’t be able to enjoy that book. The very rare times I lose a book, I replace that same book for the same reason. I might not have learned that lesson with out spending hours at the library working to pay my fines. I’m pretty sure that most libraries have the same system going. I know, I know, the kid couldn’t get back to the library on time to return his/her books because of lack of transportation, so how could the same kid get to the library to do volunteer work? Walking or riding a bike or taking a bus could maybe be an option. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/195 "2016-04-11T03:41:56Z")
Well, if they can’t always get there, their volunteer time might take a lot longer, that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/196 "2016-04-11T09:32:10Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Then a better way would be to have them volunteer at the _library_ itself. Yes, this would be the best - and was already mentioned. The alternatives are for if there’s a problem getting them to the library. > [@](#): > > And unlike the schools, libraries usually welcome volunteers. \*I’ve \*yet to encounter a school that didn’t welcome volunteer help. My daughter goes to an independent not-at-all-cheap school, fully-staffed, and they use volunteers all the time. Ditto the school I attended, my wife’s school etc. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/197 "2016-04-11T12:51:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The alternatives are for if there’s a problem getting them to the library. Why does that problem, whatever it is, prevent them from returning the books, if it did not prevent them from borrowing them? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/198 "2016-04-11T12:59:58Z")
Well, it could _never_ be that they have intermittent transport that got them there the first time and isn’t available thereafter. Lord knows, poor people _always_ have the best new cars, well-maintained and in peak running condition. And of _course_, they _always_ have money for the bus… And anyway, their status when they borrowed the books will _always_ be the same as their status two weeks later, forever and ever, amen. Poor people’s lives are _never_ subject to sudden upheavals, no sir. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/199 "2016-04-11T13:29:58Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Zsofia: > > Say what? What the hell is admirable about that, even “kind of”? That’s disgusting. Not just the sheer brass balls of it, which are indeed impressive, but the technique! I mean, one assumes she has quite the commendable diet, gets a lot of fiber? Plus the balance required! I mean, personally, for me to manage that I’d surely have to at least have somebody there to hold onto. Look, you work this job for long enough, it takes something really spectacular to impress you and sometimes it’s such an amazing abrogation of the social compact that the only response you can muster is awe. Just regular old shit on the floor doesn’t really raise too much of an eyebrow anymore, you have to up your game to get me to sit up and pay attention. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/200 "2016-04-11T14:07:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes, this would be the best - and was already mentioned. > > The alternatives are for if there’s a problem getting them to the library.\*I’ve \*yet to encounter a school that didn’t welcome volunteer help. My daughter goes to an independent not-at-all-cheap school, fully-staffed, and they use volunteers all the time. Ditto the school I attended, my wife’s school etc. Community service isn’t volunteerism. It’s punishment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694.md?page=11)