# In San Jose, Poor Find Doors to Library Closed **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 31, 2016, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694 "2016-03-31T04:38:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/201 "2016-04-11T14:20:54Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Community service isn’t volunteerism. It’s punishment. Agreed, but take it up with **Guin** , she used the “volunteer” phrasing, I just responded. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/202 "2016-04-11T14:31:41Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Agreed, but take it up with **Guin** , she used the “volunteer” phrasing, I just responded. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/203 "2016-04-11T17:41:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, it could _never_ be that they have intermittent transport that got them there the first time and isn’t available thereafter. … > And anyway, their status when they borrowed the books will _always_ be the same as their status two weeks later, forever and ever, amen. Poor people’s lives are _never_ subject to sudden upheavals, no sir. Looking at a map of San Jose, it seems that it’s pretty hard to find a place in the city that is more than a 30 minute walk from a library. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/204 "2016-04-11T18:30:45Z")
What if they can’t afford shoes? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Pai325](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pai325](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pai325)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/205 "2016-04-11T22:18:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes, this would be the best - and was already mentioned. > > The alternatives are for if there’s a problem getting them to the library.\*I’ve \*yet to encounter a school that didn’t welcome volunteer help. My daughter goes to an independent not-at-all-cheap school, fully-staffed, and they use volunteers all the time. Ditto the school I attended, my wife’s school etc. Our public school would assign the kids in trouble to after school detention, helping the custodian. He hated it. It lmade his job so much harder, and so much longer. The kids didn’t want to be there. They didn’t want to do what he said, and did it so poorly that he would have to hound them to redo it, or he would have to redo it himself. They’d want to go to the bathroom and they’d disappear. He’d have to go searching for them and get them back on task. It was glorified babysitting with fourteen year old kids who wanted to make everyone miserable. It’s not a parent who wants to run the book sale at her daughter’s school. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/206 "2016-04-11T23:06:19Z")
What I meant as working as a “volunteer” at the library would be considered your community service. Working at the library as a means of paying back your library fees. (Hell, you could let kids do it who CAN afford to pay the fines, if you want.) > [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes, this would be the best - and was already mentioned. > > The alternatives are for if there’s a problem getting them to the library.\*I’ve \*yet to encounter a school that didn’t welcome volunteer help. My daughter goes to an independent not-at-all-cheap school, fully-staffed, and they use volunteers all the time. Ditto the school I attended, my wife’s school etc. I don’t know where this school was, because most janitorial staff I know of would be unionized and have a specific contract. They wouldn’t appreciate having to supervise a bunch of kids. Kids also might not do that great a job, and the staff might end up having to do even more work. Your idea wouldn’t fly in a public school, or even in a lot of private schools. (I went to Catholic school and while we did a little bit of cleaning up our rooms, it was mostly wiping the desks off, clapping erasers, that sort of thing) Better the library, since they usually appreciate volunteer staff. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/207 "2016-04-11T23:42:27Z")
Also, another issue would be that by doing janitorial work, you might run afoul of child labor laws. (I believe there are different standards as far as libraries and museums, etc) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2016, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/208 "2016-04-12T10:54:49Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I don’t know where this school was South Africa > [@](#): > > , because most janitorial staff I know of would be unionized and have a specific contract. Here they weren’t unionized but are under contract. But they are always over-extended. > [@](#): > > They wouldn’t appreciate having to supervise a bunch of kids. Who said the _janitor_ would have to supervise the kids? Here, if kids are working at cleaning or gardening at the school, it’s with teachers and parents. I’m proposing that the “community service” kids join those existing programs. Of course, if they don’t exist, they would have to be set up -maybe American schools really are that much worse-off than my local schools in terms of parental involvement in the day-to-day running of the schools. I got the opposite impression from the news I read about the powers of PTAs and School Boards, but yeah, I could be mistaken. > [@](#): > > Kids also might not do that great a job, and the staff might end up having to do even more work. Picking up papers that have blown against the fence, sorting recyling, shovelling compost onto flowerbeds, washing the blackboards - these are hard jobs for kids to fuck up when there’s adult supervision. I’m not talking about kids rewiring the lights or fixing plumbing or any of the skilled janitorial jobs. > [@](#): > > Your idea wouldn’t fly in a public school, or even in a lot of private schools.[…]Better the library, since they usually appreciate volunteer staff. Like I said, it’s no different than the volunteer work that already happens at the schools I know of - all that would be needed is requiring the kids to participate in those _existing_ work parties, and have an adult sign off their completion, in order to count as having “paid” their library fines. I don’t think it’s as easily workable if there’s a very clear school/home separation, if parents never get involved in the school and that’s it. In which case, sure, library work only, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2016, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/209 "2016-04-12T10:57:24Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Also, another issue would be that by doing janitorial work, you might run afoul of child labor laws. IANAL but possibly, although I don’t see a difference between schools and libraries or museums in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2016, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/210 "2016-04-12T23:21:06Z")
YOU may not, but the U.S. Department of Labor does. 😉 > [@MrDibble](#): > > South Africa. That’s just it – the way things are set up here in the U.S. is a lot different than in South Africa. It has nothing to do with parental involvement in schools. Most of the work you describe is all done by paid staff – none it’s done by volunteers, or community service. Granted, there may be charter schools where things are done that way, but they’re private schools. Libraries are public (as in, taxpayer funded). There IS indeed a lot of parent involvement at schools – but it’s different from what you’re thinking of. I honestly can’t remember the PTA doing any cleaning or landscaping up at the schools, for example. It usually involves school subjects, extra-curicular activities, fund-raising, etc. And even so, it still doesn’t help the library. That’s the whole point – they work at the library, get to know the inner workings, see the effects of missing books, unpaid fines, maybe read to young kids, etc. The library gets help, and they get paid with extra help. What does the library get out of a kid working at a school, especially one not connected with that particular district school district? Nothing. I’m not criticizing you, honestly I’m not. But what you’re proposing wouldn’t fit with the way our schools work. Different places have different systems, that’s all. What works for one, doesn’t always work for the other. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/211 "2016-04-13T07:56:34Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > YOU may not, but the U.S. Department of Labor does. 😉 Cite for the DoL ruling on after school punishment being considered child labour… > [@](#): > > That’s just it – the way things are set up here in the U.S. is a lot different than in South Africa. It has nothing to do with parental involvement in schools. It seems to me like it does - that parents have a hands-off approach to the school part of their children’s education. That is often the case here too, but I find it surprising the involved parents part that occurs here, doesn’t occur there. > [@](#): > > Most of the work you describe is all done by paid staff Same here. Probably even more so, labour is cheaper here than in the US. > [@](#): > > – none it’s done by volunteers, or community service. The volunteer work is in addition to the paid staff, not because it is really necessary for school functioning, but because it builds community and teaches the kids good citizenship. > [@](#): > > Granted, there may be charter schools where things are done that way, but they’re private schools. Libraries are public (as in, taxpayer funded). The schools I’m talking about range from public to private. > [@](#): > > There IS indeed a lot of parent involvement at schools – but it’s different from what you’re thinking of. I honestly can’t remember the PTA doing any cleaning or landscaping up at the schools, for example. It usually involves school subjects, extra-curicular activities, fund-raising, etc. At various schools I know of, volunteers have been involved in - building a new computer room (exactly like an Amish-style barn raising), creating a veggie garden, painting murals, sorting recycling (this was also a fundraising activity as well - the waste was sold) etc, _in addition to_ the sort of things you list. Maybe it’s a holdover from Apartheid, when a lot of schools didn’t have adequate govt support. But I don’t see how the same wouldn’t apply to underfunded urban schools in the US, especially a place with such a _mammoth_ rich-poor divide as Silicon Valley. > [@](#): > > And even so, it still doesn’t help the library. It’s a mistake to view the library as an isolated system from the broader community its patrons exist in. A _huge_ mistake. > [@](#): > > That’s the whole point – they work at the library, get to know the inner workings, see the effects of missing books, unpaid fines, maybe read to young kids, etc. The library gets help, and they get paid with extra help. This would be the ideal, as I readily acknowledge. I’m just offering alternatives for the corner cases when that’s not possible for whatever reason. > [@](#): > > What does the library get out of a kid working at a school, especially one not connected with that particular district school district? Nothing. They get a library patron who is better educated in consequences and civic duty? > [@](#): > > I’m not criticizing you, honestly I’m not. But what you’re proposing wouldn’t fit with the way our schools work. Different places have different systems, that’s all. What works for one, doesn’t always work for the other. 🙂 Like I said, it’s all one system, or should be viewed as such. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/212 "2016-04-14T02:12:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Cite for the DoL ruling on after school punishment being considered child labour… I don’t have a cite on hand – it was a throwaway remark to point out that child labor laws can be pretty complex as well as strict. Perhaps someone else more knowledgeable can help me out here. > [@](#): > > It seems to me like it does - that parents have a hands-off approach to the school part of their children’s education. That is often the case here too, but I find it surprising the involved parents part that occurs here, doesn’t occur there. Why, because parents do not work _directly_ at the schools? That doesn’t mean they aren’t involved. I find that insulting, even. [/quote] > [@](#): > > Same here. Probably even more so, labour is cheaper here than in the US. The volunteer work is in addition to the paid staff, not because it is really necessary for school functioning, but because it builds community and teaches the kids good citizenship.The schools I’m talking about range from public to private.At various schools I know of, volunteers have been involved in - building a new computer room (exactly like an Amish-style barn raising), creating a veggie garden, painting murals, sorting recycling (this was also a fundraising activity as well - the waste was sold) etc, _in addition to_ the sort of things you list. Maybe it’s a holdover from Apartheid, when a lot of schools didn’t have adequate govt support. But I don’t see how the same wouldn’t apply to underfunded urban schools in the US, especially a place with such a _mammoth_ rich-poor divide as Silicon Valley. Even in “underfunded urban schools”, things like those are taken care of by paid workers. There’s a lot more regulation and building codes. Doing an “Amish-style barn raising” thing – I honestly can’t see it. Not with a computer room. There’s a lot of red tape and regulations here. If it’s a public school, it has to be tax-payer approved. Veggie gardens and murals are undertaken as class projects, but since they’d be an assignment to certain students, you couldn’t assign someone else to help out on the project. > [@](#): > > It’s a mistake to view the library as an isolated system from the broader community its patrons exist in. A _huge_ mistake. That’s all well and good. But we’re talking about practicalities – money. This isn’t just about “teaching kids about responsibility”. This is also about the library getting something back directly. As stated earlier, libraries are often underfunded. So unpaid fees, missing books, etc – that hurts the library. So if someone goes and helps out at the library itself, they learn how missing books harm the library, the library gets extra help, requiring less staff they have to pay, etc. This would be the ideal, as I readily acknowledge. I’m just offering alternatives for the corner cases when that’s not possible for whatever reason. [/quote] I know you are. I’m just trying to explain that hey, what works in Place A might not work in Place B. > [@](#): > > They get a library patron who is better educated in consequences and civic duty? > Like I said, it’s all one system, or should be viewed as such. Would be nice, but it doesn’t always work out that way. ONE major issue might be lowering the fees – 50 cents a day sounds quite a bit much, especially for an impoverished area. I live in a more affluent community, and our’s are 25 cents a day. They might also have a lower fee for juvenile and young adult books, and perhaps kids 13 and under could only be allowed to take only three books at a time. Other than that, I don’t think we should be bending over backwards. There are reasonable solutions. The one they have right now doesn’t seem to be working, if people are avoiding the library altogether, and they’re losing books. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/213 "2016-04-14T09:41:05Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Why, because parents do not work _directly_ at the schools? That doesn’t mean they aren’t involved. I find that insulting, even. They’re “involved” like the chicken is “involved” in a bacon and eggs breakfast, not like the pig is. You may see it as insulting, I see it as the truth - without the least amount of sweat equity or physical presence in the location, people tend to view education as a commodity they buy for their kids, not a community activity everyone should engage with. The school becomes a machine for dealing with the youth “over there”, not a centre of community life. Ditto with the library, or the museum. You seem to see this with the last two, but are insulted when I suggest it should be the same for the first one, and I can’t understand why. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/214 "2016-04-14T21:02:02Z")
I don’t feel insulted, personally – I but I do find it an insulting notion. The idea that because we have a different way of running schools that somehow parents aren’t truely involved unless they’re right there at the school themselves is what I find bizarre. Note: while I don’t know how things are run in San Jose, here are Pennsylvania’s [child labor laws](http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=552938&mode=2). I imagine San Jose’s would be pretty similiar. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/215 "2016-04-14T22:23:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What if they can’t afford shoes? > > Regards, > Shodan They feel bad till they meet a man who can’t afford feet. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/216 "2016-04-15T00:33:05Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > They’re “involved” like the chicken is “involved” in a bacon and eggs breakfast, not like the pig is. You may see it as insulting, I see it as the truth - without the least amount of sweat equity or physical presence in the location, people tend to view education as a commodity they buy for their kids, not a community activity everyone should engage with. The school becomes a machine for dealing with the youth “over there”, not a centre of community life. Ditto with the library, or the museum. You seem to see this with the last two, but are insulted when I suggest it should be the same for the first one, and I can’t understand why. Thank you, Jiminy, for pointing out the error of our ways. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/217 "2016-04-15T12:56:39Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Thank you, Jiminy, for pointing out the error of our ways. :rolleyes: Truly, you have much to learn from me… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/218 "2016-04-15T13:03:23Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I don’t feel insulted, personally – I but I do find it an insulting notion. The idea that because we have a different way of running schools that somehow parents aren’t truely involved unless they’re right there at the school themselves is what I find bizarre. I find the notion of just handing your kids over to an institution you have no involvement in equally bizarre, but not insulting. > [@](#): > > Note: while I don’t know how things are run in San Jose, here are Pennsylvania’s [child labor laws](http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=552938&mode=2). I imagine San Jose’s would be pretty similiar. The only bit that seems relevant is “students fourteen years of age and over whose employment is part of a recognized school-work program, supervised by a recognized school authority, may be employed for hours which, combined with the hours spent in school, do not exceed eight a day”, everything else seems to relate to paid employment, which is not i any way what I’m suggesting. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/219 "2016-04-15T22:34:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I find the notion of just handing your kids over to an institution you have no involvement in equally bizarre, but not insulting. Again, who says they have “no involvement”? :dubious: And nobody just “hands their kids over”. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/220 "2016-04-16T01:04:45Z")
These kinds of policies are not unique to San Jose: > [@](#): > > Cathy and Melvin Duren have no plans on ever checking out a book at a public library again after the stress the two say they’ve felt over being prosecuted for two late library books in their hometown of Tecumseh. > > 7 Action News was in court Thursday as the husband and wife were each arraigned on a misdemeanor charge of Failure to Return Rental Property. > > The couple thinks it’s unfair that they never would have been charged, if they had each just paid a $105 “diversion fee” to the Lenawee County Economic Crimes Unit in addition to the monies owed to the Tecumseh Public Library. > **[Couple charged in case of late library books](https://www.wxyz.com/news/wife-husband-arraigned-on-charges-stemming-from-late-library-books)** > > Cathy and Melvin Duren have no plans on ever checking out a book at a public library again after the stress the two say they've felt over being prosecuted for two late library books in their hometown of Tecumseh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694.md?page=12)