# In San Jose, Poor Find Doors to Library Closed **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 31, 2016, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694 "2016-03-31T04:38:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/61 "2016-04-01T12:20:12Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > The bone phone no doubt. Trivia: “Phone” and “bone” are the same word in the English dialect known as “Damn it, Siri!” ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/62 "2016-04-01T13:33:26Z")
> [@pool](#): > > Somehow I just don’t believe these people without transportation just can’t make it back to the library to return their books. I mean they initially got there somehow, some of you are acting like they must have taken two months of planning and encountered multiple failures before their first visit to the library. No one is acting like that at all. If you’re not against a deadline, you are able to go when it’s convenient. When you’re against a deadline, you are forced to go when it’s inconvenient which may in fact range from impractical to impossible. I suppose if you structured your life around getting a book back to the library then you’d have no worries. Most people have greater priorities but perhaps not the luxury of saying “I’ll run it by when I’m taking the kids of soccer this weekend”. For that matter, I don’t think anyone is saying that you should be exempt from penalties for late returns, but rather that the ones in the OP seem overly draconian in both cost and loss of non-loaning related privilege. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/63 "2016-04-01T13:39:07Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > I don’t think that time is really the issue, since most poor people don’t work full time. That’s true. No real jobs, can’t get to the library on time. Poor people are all just lazy, am I right? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/64 "2016-04-01T14:05:30Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > That’s true. No real jobs, can’t get to the library on time. You’re the one who brought up the alleged time constraint. Are you moving the goalposts? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/65 "2016-04-01T14:28:16Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > You’re the one who brought up the alleged time constraint. Are you moving the goalposts? There are no “goalposts” here unless someone is going to “win” a debate about the hypothetical schedules of imaginary poor people. That low income often results in a crimped time schedule and difficulty in transportation shouldn’t really be an argument. You seem to feel that this is no excuse for returning materials late; I disagree (or at least I find it more understandable if not “excused”). I don’t really need to set “goalposts” in a more specific argument about if Imaginary Person can get to the library on time because they spend all day collecting welfare on the couch or if they’re working three part time jobs to keep the lights on. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/66 "2016-04-01T14:47:55Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > That low income often results in a crimped time schedule and difficulty in transportation shouldn’t really be an argument. But it is an argument. I don’t accept your premise that people who don’t work full-time are facing a “crimped” time schedule. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/67 "2016-04-01T15:00:23Z")
I’m okay with that. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/68 "2016-04-01T15:03:15Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > I’m okay with that. So you either won’t, or more likely can’t, back up your own statement(s). Duly noted. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/69 "2016-04-01T15:08:17Z")
Wow, are my feeling hurt! No, seriously, I’m not about to play dueling hypothetical poor people with you. Even if you try _really hard_ to shame me into it. My own experiences tell me that poverty often comes with a lack of time which may seem counter-intuitive to you but so it goes. There’s also a number of plain lazy people in the world but they, generally, aren’t the sort spending much time at the library. Where the Venn diagram of “not much resources” and “interested in educational & cultural advancement” overlap, I have no trouble understanding that they may have trouble meeting a deadline. Your mileage may vary, etc. You can huff and win the thread now if you need. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/70 "2016-04-01T15:41:18Z")
Quite a lot of “poor” people not only work full-time but work multiple jobs at shitty wages to make ends meet. The idea that poor people can suddenly stop being poor by getting a job is not borne out by reality in many, many cases. None of which has anything to do with libraries directly, of course. But the idea that they’re all just too lazy to take their books back on time relies on assumptions which may not be true. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/71 "2016-04-01T16:21:17Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Quite a lot of “poor” people not only work full-time but work multiple jobs at shitty wages to make ends meet. Depends on what you mean by “quite a lot”. If you mean roughly one in four, then yes; if you mean anything more than that, no. > [@](#): > > But the idea that they’re all just too lazy to take their books back on time relies on assumptions which may not be true. The only person I can find in the thread saying that poor people are lazy is **Jophiel** , and he was strawmanning. The question under discussion is why it would be the case that people can manage to get to the library once to check the materials out, but for some reason not twice to return them. What are the factors that block the second visit, but not the first? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/72 "2016-04-01T16:30:05Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > If they are kids, isn’t it the parents’ responsibility? And if the child is interested in reading but the parents just don’t care, and certainly won’t (or can’t) pay fines for the sake of their kids’ reading, then I guess the kid is just screwed and undeserving of any consideration or assistance. > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > I don’t think that time is really the issue, since most poor people don’t work full time. What color is the sky where you live? You’ve never heard of the working poor, or those who have two or three jobs to support their families? Maybe they have aspirations for their kids to do better, but oops, they’re poor so they must be lazy and shiftless and irresponsible. Step on their necks and be done with it. It’s quite true that no-one owes these people access to library books. That was never the point of public libraries. Public libraries are in the same niche as public schools, they serve to raise the educational level of the general population, which is good for everyone, even you. It’s also quite true that library budgets are being slashed, which is largely thanks to people who don’t think that libraries are a good investment. And no-one is saying that there should be zero consequences for failure to return books or for returning them late. But in all the areas where it behooves society to give people a break, public libraries are right up there on my list. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/73 "2016-04-01T17:03:28Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > My own experiences tell me that poverty often comes with a lack of time which may seem counter-intuitive to you but so it goes. You’re an anonymous person on the internet. Why should we believe your version? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/74 "2016-04-01T17:08:07Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > What color is the sky where you live? Blue, the same color where facts take precedence over lame emotional appeals. 35% of the poor don’t work at all. Of the rest, only 44% work full time. They can find the time to rent a library book, but not the time to return it. Yeah, right. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/75 "2016-04-01T17:13:25Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/31/us/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/31/us/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed.html) > > Well that will teach them not to be late in returning books, right? Oh, boo hoo. Speaking as someone who, in his youth, regularly racked up ridiculous library late fees and a few lost book fees, they are easy to avoid. RETURN THE BOOKS ON TIME. Otherwise you’re not borrowing the books; you’re STEALING them. People who check out library books and return them late or not at all are hurting both the library and their fellow patrons. I opened this thread thinking it would be about something like the library charging patrons simply to enter or use the Internet. This is a non-issue. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/76 "2016-04-01T17:19:03Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Suppose a poor kid borrows several books and forgets to return them on time. He returns them a month late. He can not borrow any more books because of the big fine which has been built up. That poor kid’s parents – let’s call them Mama & Papa Rhymer – should say “Skald, the fines for those overdue books is coming out of your allowance, and you may not check out any more books until you’ve repaid us. And until you can demonstrate responsibility, you will not be allowed to check out more than one book at a time.” ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/77 "2016-04-01T17:26:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The question under discussion is why it would be the case that people can manage to get to the library once to check the materials out, but for some reason not twice to return them. What are the factors that block the second visit, but not the first? The first visit is in no way time sensitive. Whatever factors are blocking the second trip were avoided the first time by virue of doing it when it worked for you. > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > You’re an anonymous person on the internet. Why should we believe your version? There goes my dream of decisively solving world problems on MPSIMS via anonymous people on the internet ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/78 "2016-04-01T17:34:01Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > That poor kid’s parents – let’s call them Mama & Papa Rhymer – should say “Skald, the fines for those overdue books is coming out of your allowance, and you may not check out any more books until you’ve repaid us. And until you can demonstrate responsibility, you will not be allowed to check out more than one book at a time.” And if they do it again, it’s the workhouse and medical experiments. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/79 "2016-04-01T17:37:46Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > The first visit is in no way time sensitive. Whatever factors are blocking the second trip were avoided the first time by virue of doing it when it worked for you. Boo hoo. > [@](#): > > There goes my dream of decisively solving world problems on MPSIMS via anonymous people on the internet ☹ If that’s what you want to call it. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/80 "2016-04-01T17:46:27Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > And if they do it again, it’s the workhouse and medical experiments. No, it results in 10-year-old Skald learning to return books on time. How is that a bad thing. 10-year-old Skald, by not returning books on time, was hurting not simply the library, but also his neighbors, who might also have wanted to check out those books themselves. And if he kept those books without ever returning them,m he was STEALING the books, no less than if he’d sneaked them out of the library another way. When I was a kid, in Memphis, a standard library loan period was 2 weeks, I think, with the option to renew once or twice; fines were 20 cents a day, capped at something like $20. Reach that level of fines and you lost your borrowing privileges. Periodically the library had amnesty days on which one could return overdue books and regain borrowing privileges for free. If you could live with such restrictions, you didn’t deserve to borrow books. The books aren’t free to the library; paying the staff and keeping the lights on isn’t free either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694.md?page=5)