# In San Jose, Poor Find Doors to Library Closed **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 31, 2016, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694 "2016-03-31T04:38:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2016, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/101 "2016-04-02T14:03:18Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > So middle-income children should pay fines, but poor children shouldn’t? What the ever loving fuck are you talking about? I really don’t get the poor hate in this thread. What is going on here? Poor people are people. Some are lazy jerks, most are hard working people, often with at least 2 part time jobs, that are trying but don’t have a way out. So, help them have a way out. This just doesn’t improve their lives, but it adds to the middle class which is _the_ key for helping the country overall. Instead we are destroying the middle class and making it harder for people to climb back out. All the while giving the rich huge praise and tax breaks. :dubious: What is chump change to one group is money needed for food or shelter to another. So, yeah. Give 'em a break. A _lot_ of breaks. This mentality that started in the 80s of “I heard someone bought lobster with food stamps so let’s get rid of food stamps.” is getting _really_ tired. ---
**Author:** ![Paegan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@Paegan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paegan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/102 "2016-04-02T15:01:24Z")
Kids here can take the borrowed public library books to school and leave them in the office. The library’s route drivers then pick them up. From what I understand, this has helped immensely cut down the amount of late fees paid to our local library. Most kids have regular daily transportation to their school. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2016, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/103 "2016-04-02T16:01:28Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > So the library fined me for irresponsibility. This caused my parents, who had to pay the fines when I was ten, to forbid me to check out more than two books at a time, even though I was capable of reading far more. That was no different, and no more “unfair,” than it would have been to say “Skald, you can’t go to the movies more than once every two months because we can’t afford any more.” This is a great story, but doesn’t reflect the situation in San Jose. Your parents were able to pay the fine. For the kids in the story, their parents can’t (or won’t). So instead of adorable little Skald learning his lesson, these kids are effectively banned from using the library for the rest of their childhood. We can talk about theoretically how fines should work. But in this case, it’s clear that they don’t. 65% of the people who presumably want to use the library are banned from doing so due to outstanding fines. It’s clear that the system isn’t working. The fines aren’t causing people to be better about returning things on time. They are causing people to stop using the library. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/104 "2016-04-02T16:02:28Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > So middle-income children should pay fines, but poor children shouldn’t? What the ever loving fuck are you talking about? I’m sorry, are you suggesting that banning a kid from using the library because their parents are too poor to pay a fine is just? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2016, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/105 "2016-04-02T16:52:51Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > … > The only people to whom the doors are metaphorical locked are those who have been barred because of behavior. I don’t care if you’re at the library can thousand dollars, you’re perfectly free to come in and read the magazines or books on the shelves, you just can’t check them out. How easy is it, generally, to get banned because of behavior? E.g. is it often as simple as Little Suzie got caught pulling her pants down at age 6 and is now a 35 year old mother of two and still banned for life from the library, or does banning usually require repeat or especially egregious behavior? Once a person has been banned from the library for behavior, to what extent do they have any hope of a second chance? E.g. are bannings usually for a set period of time (e.g. banned for six months for swearing, banned for a year for spitting on the carpet) or do people have to go through some sort of repentance process and petition the library for re-admittance? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2016, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/106 "2016-04-02T19:11:46Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I’m sorry, are you suggesting that banning a kid from using the library because their parents are too poor to pay a fine is just? No, more like, “if you can’t make a reasonable effort to return your books on time, then you lose the right to check more out.” People have listed suggestions and options (kids dropping them off at the school sounds like a good one). But just saying, “oh, it’s okay, we’ll waive the fees because you’re poor!” doesn’t sound like it will do anything either. Perhaps lower the fee for children under a certain age? I sympathize for these kids, I really do. But it’s not fair to the other kids who want to check out those books and can’t, because someone never made a decent effort to return them. Library fines serve a purpose, and there have been times for whatever reason, I wasn’t able to get back when they were due, and couldn’t renew them on line. I called ahead and let them know the situation, and they were happy to help. I’m sure that something along these lines can be worked out. ---
**Author:** ![flatlined](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eb9ed0/32.png) [@flatlined](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flatlined)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/107 "2016-04-02T19:30:54Z")
While I do agree that the fines seem high, I think the thread title was misleading. The doors aren’t shut to the poor, they are shut to people who don’t return books so that other people can enjoy them. If the library had started charging for library cards, that would be shutting the doors to the poor. Every couple of years, the PTB in Prescott start talking about charging for library cards and its always shot down by people who could easily afford to pay $10 bucks a year. Not because they didn’t want to personally pony up the price of a couple of foo-foo coffees for library access each year, but because they didn’t want the library to close its doors to the poor. Every library I’ve ever used has always been pretty liberal about replacing lost items. I’ve lost a few books and had vehicles eat CD’s. In every case, I was able to replace the item with a like item and spend a few hours repairing or shelving books to make up for the processing cost. From what I got from the article, it seems as though the Director probably has a similar policy in place. Libraries keep getting their budgets slashed and really struggle to keep the shelves full. People who don’t return books shouldn’t be allowed to borrow more books until they have “paid” for the lost books in some fashion. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/108 "2016-04-02T20:30:49Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > The phrase “penny wise and pound foolish” comes to mind here. Dopers seem to favor saving a few dollars on the loss of library books vs spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on the massive societal loss when a child switches from reading library books to joining gangs and starting a lifetime of crime and unemployment. Or it could be that, by encouraging irresponsible behavior, you set up the poor folks to think that irresponsible behavior has no consequences. Slee ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/109 "2016-04-03T06:21:29Z")
Libraries cannot cash checks written on avoiding massive societal loss anyways. Libraries are poor too. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/110 "2016-04-03T06:36:33Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > I really don’t get the poor hate in this thread. I don’t either. Perhaps you could point it out. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/111 "2016-04-03T17:59:54Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I’m sorry, are you suggesting that banning a kid from using the library because their parents are too poor to pay a fine is just? No, but banning them for not returning books on time is. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/112 "2016-04-03T18:55:52Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > How easy is it, generally, to get banned because of behavior? Not easy. I wish it was easier, frankly. Masrturbating at the computer, threatening a staff member, defecating on the floor (may sound extreme, but pretty much every public library has this problem from time to time, by the way), fighting with another patron, or screaming at another person, all actual examples of things people did that got them permanently banned. I’m sure some would call it poor shaming, but it’s really not “Little Susie didn’t say please, remove her from this place of learning!” ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/113 "2016-04-04T10:01:21Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > That poor kid’s parents – let’s call them Mama & Papa Rhymer – should say “Skald, the fines for those overdue books is coming out of your allowance, and you may not check out any more books until you’ve repaid us. And until you can demonstrate responsibility, you will not be allowed to check out more than one book at a time.” “Allowance”? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/114 "2016-04-04T14:58:48Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Suppose a poor kid borrows several books and forgets to return them on time. He returns them a month late. He can not borrow any more books because of the big fine which has been built up. Correct me if I’m wrong, but haven’t libraries pretty much always worked like this? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/115 "2016-04-04T15:08:27Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > “Allowance”? Yes. In 1980, I was ten, I got five dollars a week, two of which had to go in the chutch collection plate on Sundays. Anything else I wanted to had to go out and scratch for. ETA: And when I racked up those late fees, I had to pay them out of my allowance, which meant several weeks of nothing. There were people poorer than us, but the 80s Rhymers were fairly skint. Dad had to work a lot of overtime, and Mom had to take in a lot of sewing, to make ends meet. Even going to the library was a luxury, because it entailed $1.50 bus trip–money that could have been spent on food. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/116 "2016-04-04T17:48:48Z")
My library still lets you use the computers and such (which, please remember, may be somebody’s only access to the Internet, which is where all the jobs are) with fines. I feel that’s the way it should work elsewhere. Also, please remember that this can kick you out of the library _for life_. I assume that everybody going on about personal responsibility never did anything dumb as teenagers? Lose a book at 16 and you still may not be able to check out books at 28, when you have kids of your own (and at least here if you owe more than $10 in fines we will not give your kids a library card either.) Not to mention that sometimes you end up with fines on your card because your mom ran up HER card and started using yours. We see that a lot. It’s an issue. Generally libraries are torn between needing our materials back and needing our patrons back. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/117 "2016-04-04T17:55:36Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Not easy. I wish it was easier, frankly. Masrturbating at the computer, threatening a staff member, defecating on the floor (may sound extreme, but pretty much every public library has this problem from time to time, by the way), fighting with another patron, or screaming at another person, all actual examples of things people did that got them permanently banned. I’m sure some would call it poor shaming, but it’s really not “Little Susie didn’t say please, remove her from this place of learning!” I have a friend who works at another branch of my system and she saw somebody in a long dress once pause in the vestibule for a moment (standing, mind you) and then continue on, leaving a poo on the floor. You kind of have to admire it. (Meanwhile the most horribly verbally abusive people are allowed to stay, but don’t get me started.) ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/118 "2016-04-04T20:39:20Z")
Don’t see the problem and the article’s title is a lie. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/119 "2016-04-04T20:43:19Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > I really don’t get the poor hate in this thread. What is going on here? Poor people are people. Some are lazy jerks, most are hard working people, often with at least 2 part time jobs, that are trying but don’t have a way out. > > So, help them have a way out. This just doesn’t improve their lives, but it adds to the middle class which is _the_ key for helping the country overall. > > Instead we are destroying the middle class and making it harder for people to climb back out. All the while giving the rich huge praise and tax breaks. :dubious: > > What is chump change to one group is money needed for food or shelter to another. So, yeah. Give 'em a break. A _lot_ of breaks. > > This mentality that started in the 80s of “I heard someone bought lobster with food stamps so let’s get rid of food stamps.” is getting _really_ tired. Poor hate? Lol. And this is why people ought to ridicule PC. Can’t even advocate returning library books without being accused of hate. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/120 "2016-04-04T20:58:24Z")
Seconded. “Hate” is another word that like “misogyny” has become so misused so often that it’s losing all meaning whatsoever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694.md?page=7)