# In San Jose, Poor Find Doors to Library Closed **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 31, 2016, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694 "2016-03-31T04:38:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/121 "2016-04-04T21:03:58Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > No, more like, “if you can’t make a reasonable effort to return your books on time, then you lose the right to check more out.” People have listed suggestions and options (kids dropping them off at the school sounds like a good one). But just saying, “oh, it’s okay, we’ll waive the fees because you’re poor!” doesn’t sound like it will do anything either. Perhaps lower the fee for children under a certain age? I sympathize for these kids, I really do. But it’s not fair to the other kids who want to check out those books and can’t, because someone never made a decent effort to return them. > > Library fines serve a purpose, and there have been times for whatever reason, I wasn’t able to get back when they were due, and couldn’t renew them on line. I called ahead and let them know the situation, and they were happy to help. I’m sure that something along these lines can be worked out. It doesn’t seem like that’s the case in San Jose. They are sending these fines to collections. I’m fine with replacing fees with some other ‘stick’ in the case of people being unable to pay. For example, make the kid write an essay/note explaining why books need to be returned and their strategy for doing better in the future. My problem comes where Tiny Tim doesn’t get to use the library any more while Richie Rich just has his parents pay the fee. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/122 "2016-04-04T21:37:06Z")
> [@treis](#): > > My problem comes where Tiny Tim doesn’t get to use the library any more while Richie Rich just has his parents pay the fee. Oh, please. The definition of rich now is being able to pay your kids’ library fines? Perhaps if Tiny Tim (who, let’s face it, isn’t quite as innocent in his fate as was his namesake) learns responsibility he’ll grow up to be one of those rich people who can pay library fines, while the kid whose parents pays his fines for him grows up to be an irresponsible, partying, drug-using loser who ends up on the dole. Funny how things work out sometimes, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/123 "2016-04-05T17:13:29Z")
> [@treis](#): > > It doesn’t seem like that’s the case in San Jose. They are sending these fines to collections. I’m fine with replacing fees with some other ‘stick’ in the case of people being unable to pay. For example, make the kid write an essay/note explaining why books need to be returned and their strategy for doing better in the future. My problem comes where Tiny Tim doesn’t get to use the library any more while Richie Rich just has his parents pay the fee. Seriously? Writing an essay isn’t going to replace these books. Work it off volunteering might be a better strategy. As for using the library, it depends on what you mean. Come in and have access to the computers, reference materials, etc? I don’t think they should be barred from doing so. Be allowed to check out more books? Nope, sorry, not until you pay your fines. That’s the way it is at every single library I’ve encountered. I’m sorry, I really am. But libraries are already strapped for cash as it is. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/124 "2016-04-05T17:59:39Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Not easy. I wish it was easier, frankly. Masrturbating at the computer, threatening a staff member, defecating on the floor (may sound extreme, but pretty much every public library has this problem from time to time, by the way), fighting with another patron, or screaming at another person, all actual examples of things people did that got them permanently banned. I’m sure some would call it poor shaming, but it’s really not “Little Susie didn’t say please, remove her from this place of learning!” In other words, things that will get you permanently banned from other public places too, and arrested as well. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/125 "2016-04-05T19:57:30Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Seriously? Writing an essay isn’t going to replace these books. There seem to be two separate arguments being made. One is that banning kids from using some subset of library functions until they return books and pay fines teaches responsibility, and the other is that libraries need those books back because they’re under financial pressure. For the former, some escalating series of steps or alternative, non-financial penalties would do the trick. For the latter, I think perhaps a rich city in a rich region in a rich state of a rich country could just suck it up and fund their libraries adequately. > [@](#): > > Work it off volunteering might be a better strategy. Sure, that’d be fine, too. > [@](#): > > As for using the library, it depends on what you mean. Come in and have access to the computers, reference materials, etc? I don’t think they should be barred from doing so. Be allowed to check out more books? Nope, sorry, not until you pay your fines. That’s the way it is at every single library I’ve encountered. I’m sorry, I really am. But libraries are already strapped for cash as it is. So if a kid has fines that he literally _cannot_ pay, your solution is that he can never, ever check out books again? There is no alternative, non-cash compensation he could offer the library? Or is this where you’d accept some volunteering time in lieu of payment? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/126 "2016-04-05T21:19:47Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > That poor kid’s parents – let’s call them Mama & Papa Rhymer – should say “Skald, the fines for those overdue books is coming out of your allowance, and you may not check out any more books until you’ve repaid us. And until you can demonstrate responsibility, you will not be allowed to check out more than one book at a time.” It’s cute, you think really poor kids get an allowance… ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/127 "2016-04-05T21:35:59Z")
I teach in a very poor area. Yet despite that, there are virtually none of my students who are completely bereft of luxury items. I suspect the same is true in the area we are discussing. This is not war-torn sub-Saharan Africa poverty we are discussing. This is 21st century USA poverty. I am not saying that they shouldn’t have these items. I am saying that if they can squeeze the monthly budget such that the kid can have a smart phone or some such shit, they can pay a library fine. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/128 "2016-04-05T21:47:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s cute, you think really poor kids get an allowance… Very poor attempt at a stealth insult. I acknowledged that there were much poorer families in the city than the 70s & 80s Rhymers. But that’s kind of the point. Poor kids, not being able to afford to buy books, are dependent on the local library, which is a shared resource. If the families are not going to be RESPONSIBLE enough to (a) restrict the number of books the kids can check out to a number that kid can handle, and (b) get the books, in whatever quantity, back on time, then that family is hurting the other poor families in the neighborhood. They won’t learn responsibility unless there are consequences, which is the purpose of hte fines–not to smack the impoverished around. If you can get your kid to the library to check books out, you can get them back to the library to return them. You may have to return the books early to avoid problems; you may have to restrict the number of books your kids can check out. That’s unfortunate, but it’s not unjust, any more than the fact tht I cannot eat sugary cereal because of my diabetes is unfair. It’s just the way things are. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/129 "2016-04-05T21:49:09Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > I teach in a very poor area. Yet despite that, there are virtually none of my students who are completely bereft of luxury items. I suspect the same is true in the area we are discussing. This is not war-torn sub-Saharan Africa poverty we are discussing. This is 21st century USA poverty. I am not saying that they shouldn’t have these items. I am saying that if they can squeeze the monthly budget such that the kid can have a smart phone or some such shit, they can pay a library fine. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/130 "2016-04-05T22:29:56Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > I have a friend who works at another branch of my system and she saw somebody in a long dress once pause in the vestibule for a moment (standing, mind you) and then continue on, leaving a poo on the floor. You kind of have to admire it. There was some major :dubious: a few months ago when a man pooped in the library at Bryn Mawr and it became national news while public librarians all over the country said “Those poor babies”. ([Article](http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/thinktank/The-inside-poop-on-librarians-daily-adventures.html)) [QUOTE=nearwildhaven] In other words, things that will get you permanently banned from other public places too, and arrested as well. [/QUOTE] Actuallly it’s probably significantly _harder_ to get banned from a library than most public places. We can’t/don’t ask somebody to leave just because they’re sitting down and silently muttering to themselves, for example, or even if they have offensive B.O. (I’m talking “odor that homeless people complain about”- literally), which they would in a business or even a college library. There is a lot I prefer about public libraries over college libraries, but they can be a trial. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/131 "2016-04-06T00:12:59Z")
Perhaps a lower fine fine for say, kids under thirteen. Maybe ten cents instead of fifty. And a restriction on the number of books you can check out at a time. Most libraries I’ve seen give you three weeks, and then you can re-new them at least twice, provided nobody else wants them. Surely you can get your books back within twelve weeks! > [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > So if a kid has fines that he literally _cannot_ pay, your solution is that he can never, ever check out books again? There is no alternative, non-cash compensation he could offer the library? Or is this where you’d accept some volunteering time in lieu of payment? Isn’t that what I just said – volunteering to work off your payment? Otherwise no, I’m sorry. That’s the rule at my library, for Tiny Tim OR Richie Rich. And how would it be fair for the kids who make sure to take their library books back on time, and want to read those books that aren’t there, that the libraries have to spend more money re-ordering books, (as stated, libraries are often under-funded as it is). What about the Tiny Tims that DO try to be responsible? > [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s cute, you think really poor kids get an allowance… Yeah, that’s a little :dubious:. (Obviously it totally misses the point here is that duh, you can’t afford to pay the fine, so you obviously can’t afford an allowance.) However, I do think that if you’re racking up library fines into double-digits, there’s a problem there. ---
**Author:** ![Pai325](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pai325](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pai325)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/132 "2016-04-06T00:48:27Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > My library still lets you use the computers and such (which, please remember, may be somebody’s only access to the Internet, which is where all the jobs are) with fines. I feel that’s the way it should work elsewhere. > > Also, please remember that this can kick you out of the library _for life_. I assume that everybody going on about personal responsibility never did anything dumb as teenagers? Lose a book at 16 and you still may not be able to check out books at 28, when you have kids of your own (and at least here if you owe more than $10 in fines we will not give your kids a library card either.) > > Not to mention that sometimes you end up with fines on your card because your mom ran up HER card and started using yours. We see that a lot. > > It’s an issue. Generally libraries are torn between needing our materials back and needing our patrons back. I ran up a lot of fines when I was younger, and I bet I still owe money at more than one library, but it’s never stopped me as an adult from getting a card and checking out books. How does owing money at eight stop you from getting a card at 30? Or is this just if you never move from the place where you grow up? Since I’m in my 60s now, I don’t think there is a record at any library of what I owe, so I hope my donations as an adult has taken care of my fines, plus interest. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/133 "2016-04-06T07:14:46Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Very poor attempt at a stealth insult. It’s not an insult, it’s a statement of opinion - I _do_ think it’s cute you think the really poor have money to give their kids allowances. The point isn’t that there were poorer people than you (there’s _always_ someone poorer), the point is that, while you seem to think you know what it’s like to _actually_ experience poverty, you come across as not having clue #1. “Let them use their allowances” has the same tone deafness as “let them eat cake”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/134 "2016-04-06T07:18:30Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Yeah, that’s a little :dubious:. (Obviously it totally misses the point here is that duh, you can’t afford to pay the fine, so you obviously can’t afford an allowance.) However, I do think that if you’re racking up library fines into double-digits, there’s a problem there. Agreed. But IMO, the solution isn’t to ban those kids, the solution is to find alternative channels for payment, like was indicated earlier - maybe working in the library, or somesuch. Also, to me, late fines and missing book fines shouldn’t be conflated. One is a lot worse than the other, and a way of working off the former shouldn’t be as onerous as the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/135 "2016-04-06T13:06:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Agreed. But IMO, the solution isn’t to ban those kids, the solution is to find alternative channels for payment, like was indicated earlier - maybe working in the library, or somesuch. If their schedules are such that they cannot make it back to the library in time to return their books, how will they make to the library in time to work off their fines? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/136 "2016-04-06T13:12:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If their schedules are such that they cannot make it back to the library in time to return their books, how will they make to the library in time to work off their fines? They don’t have to work during lending hours - cleanup on off hours. Or maybe other community work, elsewhere and at a better time. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/137 "2016-04-06T13:34:56Z")
I don’t see a problem at all. I hate this line: didn’t you do dumb things as a teenager? What I didn’t do is keep my books past the time, and when I did, I willingly paid (and pay) the fines. All people are suggesting is a great way for people to avoid their personal responsibility. If you can’t get your ass back to the library on time, I am perfectly fine with you not checking out any books. And really it’s not about not getting there on time, it’s about having no respect for other people’s property. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/138 "2016-04-06T15:11:48Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I don’t see a problem at all. I hate this line: didn’t you do dumb things as a teenager? What I didn’t do is keep my books past the time, and when I did, I willingly paid (and pay) the fines. All people are suggesting is a great way for people to avoid their personal responsibility. If you can’t get your ass back to the library on time, I am perfectly fine with you not checking out any books. And really it’s not about not getting there on time, it’s about having no respect for other people’s property. No, your parents willingly paid the fines\*. That’s the difference you, Skald, and others are missing. These kids’ parents aren’t paying the fines so they are getting banned. Your parents paid the fine so you wouldn’t be banned. \*Maybe as a teenager you had a job and paid the money from your earnings, but certainly not at 8. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/139 "2016-04-06T15:28:51Z")
> [@Pai325](#): > > I ran up a lot of fines when I was younger, and I bet I still owe money at more than one library, but it’s never stopped me as an adult from getting a card and checking out books. How does owing money at eight stop you from getting a card at 30? Or is this just if you never move from the place where you grow up? > > Since I’m in my 60s now, I don’t think there is a record at any library of what I owe, so I hope my donations as an adult has taken care of my fines, plus interest. Obviously I mean if you don’t move. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694/140 "2016-04-06T17:16:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > They don’t have to work during lending hours - cleanup on off hours. Or maybe other community work, elsewhere and at a better time. At my library at least, you can also drop off books during hours the library was closed. Therefore, if their schedules are such that they cannot get to the library at all to return their books, how can they get to the library to work off their fines, at all? Or anywhere else, for that matter, if they are to do community service. Leaving aside the question of keeping the library open so kids can work off their fines cleaning. They will need a supervisor at the least. And that means rescheduling librarians, paying overtime, etc. It seems like a lot of hoops for everyone to jump thru, based on the assumption that kids can’t be expected to bring their books back to the library on time. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-san-jose-poor-find-doors-to-library-closed/750694.md?page=8)