# In science fiction how did eugenics go from being a utopian ideal to a dystopian nightmare? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 3, 2011, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-science-fiction-how-did-eugenics-go-from-being-a-utopian-ideal-to-a-dystopian-nightmare/577021 "2011-04-03T07:20:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-science-fiction-how-did-eugenics-go-from-being-a-utopian-ideal-to-a-dystopian-nightmare/577021/1 "2011-04-03T07:20:46Z")
In several of the older science fiction stories I’ve read like the [Lensman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lensman_series) series and the [Methuselah’s Children](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methuselah's_Children) selective breeding is seen as a worthwhile goal to produce superior human beings. In later science fiction stories manipulating the genome is often seen in a negative and oppressive context. What caused this change in perception? Was the notion that some people were inherently “better” than other people at odds with the zeitgeist of the 70’s and the growing civil rights movement? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-science-fiction-how-did-eugenics-go-from-being-a-utopian-ideal-to-a-dystopian-nightmare/577021/2 "2011-04-03T07:27:35Z")
It was WWII. At the end when the Nazi atrocities were revealed to the world. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-science-fiction-how-did-eugenics-go-from-being-a-utopian-ideal-to-a-dystopian-nightmare/577021/3 "2011-04-03T07:28:45Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It was WWII. At the end when the Nazi atrocities were revealed to the world. Good point. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-science-fiction-how-did-eugenics-go-from-being-a-utopian-ideal-to-a-dystopian-nightmare/577021/4 "2011-04-03T08:12:41Z")
As said, it got associated with the Nazis. And then genetic engineering got equated with eugenics despite being very different. And on top of that, the Nazi/Nietzschean ideal of “supermen” lording it over “submen” was simplified and equated with the desire for any sort of improvement to humanity whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-science-fiction-how-did-eugenics-go-from-being-a-utopian-ideal-to-a-dystopian-nightmare/577021/5 "2011-04-03T10:39:58Z")
The western, non-Nazi, use of eugenics wasn’t PR-friendly, either. Dating to before the advent of civil rights and proper genetic testing it generally took the form of American sheriffs forcibly sterilising children for being black, or supposedly of “inferior” white stock (ie: poor), and so on. So it, deservedly, got a bad rep. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-science-fiction-how-did-eugenics-go-from-being-a-utopian-ideal-to-a-dystopian-nightmare/577021/6 "2011-04-03T10:57:03Z")
Generally, fascism and nationalism as well as gattacan dystopia as a social proof is yet to be overcome. And the neo fascist and frankly ruthless ajdication of the medically or scientifically impure is totally apparent in everyday society and exemplified by the pogroms on smokers, fatties, the mentally ill and those outside of puritanical addictions, money, and genetics. ---
**Author:** ![MrBerious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MrBerious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrBerious)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-science-fiction-how-did-eugenics-go-from-being-a-utopian-ideal-to-a-dystopian-nightmare/577021/7 "2011-04-03T11:32:38Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Generally, fascism and nationalism as well as gattacan dystopia as a social proof is yet to be overcome. And the neo fascist and frankly ruthless ajdication of the medically or scientifically impure is totally apparent in everyday society and exemplified by the pogroms on smokers, fatties, the mentally ill and those outside of puritanical addictions, money, and genetics. Don’t forget the poors. If there is one section of society that’s feckless, lazy, breeds like rabbits, scroungers, criminals, wasters and so on it’s always the poor. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-science-fiction-how-did-eugenics-go-from-being-a-utopian-ideal-to-a-dystopian-nightmare/577021/8 "2011-04-03T11:37:56Z")
Money, I mentioned money… right there. Those outside of money… ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-science-fiction-how-did-eugenics-go-from-being-a-utopian-ideal-to-a-dystopian-nightmare/577021/9 "2011-04-03T11:45:12Z")
**Brave New World** is anti-eugenics, published before Hitler came to power. ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-science-fiction-how-did-eugenics-go-from-being-a-utopian-ideal-to-a-dystopian-nightmare/577021/10 "2011-04-03T12:42:39Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > The western, non-Nazi, use of eugenics wasn’t PR-friendly, either. Dating to before the advent of civil rights and proper genetic testing it generally took the form of American sheriffs forcibly sterilising children for being black, or supposedly of “inferior” white stock (ie: poor), and so on. So it, deservedly, got a bad rep. This was documented by the historian Robert Marley. \*Sheriff John Brown always hated me, For what, I don’t know: Every time I plant a seed, He said kill it before it grow - He said kill them before they grow. \* ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-science-fiction-how-did-eugenics-go-from-being-a-utopian-ideal-to-a-dystopian-nightmare/577021/11 "2011-04-03T14:39:42Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > The western, non-Nazi, use of eugenics wasn’t PR-friendly, either. Dating to before the advent of civil rights and proper genetic testing it generally took the form of American sheriffs forcibly sterilising children for being black, or supposedly of “inferior” white stock (ie: poor), and so on. So it, deservedly, got a bad rep. Except at the time it was extremely popular among the thoughtful Progressive elite. The PR problem came later. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-science-fiction-how-did-eugenics-go-from-being-a-utopian-ideal-to-a-dystopian-nightmare/577021/12 "2011-04-03T15:39:38Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > **Brave New World** is anti-eugenics, published before Hitler came to power. Yeah, I really think _Brave New World_ had something to do with it.