# In Soviet Russia, Mafia plays you! (Forbidden Thread for Glasnost Mafia -- No Players!) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 22, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259 "2011-02-22T18:33:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/101 "2011-03-05T03:34:27Z")
Except in that case the other sleeper would have been notified and counter claimed. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/102 "2011-03-05T20:12:39Z")
Remember the discussion at the start of the game–a lot of people were not in favor of the Town Doc outing themselves immediately. If the Scum really did go after Idle, I wonder why they picked him. Unless Suburban is Scum, he would have seemed like the obvious choice there. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/103 "2011-03-06T21:08:47Z")
Mahaloth is saying that he was just being fluffy at Night, but he tried to call Gadarene out for a fluffy Night post that was much less egregious yesterDay. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/104 "2011-03-06T21:27:59Z")
And I really don’t like his repeated insistence that he’s played a very pro-Town game thus far. Even if he has, he would have no way of knowing that. And Townies always try at least to play a pro-Town game; it’s only Scum who have to choose whether to play pro-Town or not. ---
**Author:** ![fubbleskag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fubbleskag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fubbleskag)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/105 "2011-03-06T21:44:24Z")
I’m following this game in hopes of trying this out at some point. Any pointers for a total newb? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/106 "2011-03-06T22:37:55Z")
Once you’ve followed a game or two, the only way to learn more is by jumping in and joining one. Yes, you might get lynched early for bad play, but that’s how you learn. ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/107 "2011-03-07T02:00:05Z")
Yeah, you could even consider the likely very short time investment of your first game to be a benefit. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/108 "2011-03-07T02:54:36Z")
Quoth **Mental** : > [@](#): > > I am not sure if we have heard from everyone or not for the Day, but do keep in mind that the scum could have chose to not recruit and not have anyone claim to make us think a doctor has been created when one has not. I think he’s got it. Scum can’t be happy about doing the WiFoM dance with the Jailer, especially not after the Jailer’s won the first two rounds. So, they deliberately choose not to recruit, so Town will think they now have a Doctor. The Jailer stands back and lets the presumed Doctor protect **Mental** , and the Scum can swoop in and kill him while he’s undefended. Of course, if this is what happened, then the Scum are now even more pissed off at **Mental** right now, for seeing through their ruse. I’d look closely at anyone who seems upset after that post, as well as anyone who pointed out the lack of a recruitment-claim. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/109 "2011-03-07T02:55:49Z")
There seem to be quite a number of lurkers who are saying very, very little that I’m highly suspicious of. “Lynch the Lurker” might be an aphorism, but when you only get suspicion thrown on your for spouting off random things then attempting to defend what you said, who would blame the scum for lurking? Given that night is supposed to be “fluff only”, I find it very odd that people are basing arguments off of what is said during them. Of course, I also find the entire concept of meta-gaming in this a bit off-putting because I’ve played a lot of Diplomacy where meta-gaming is frowned on to a great extent. Many (if not almost all PBEM versions) online Diplomacy games are played via automated Judges such that you don’t even know the identity of the other players and thus have no ability to meta-game. Of course, it’s a bit hard to not meta-game when you are familiar with players, and a good portion of discussion is always going to be in that realm, but it detracts from the game for me. A good game to me should be self-contained and should not be influenced by what specific people did in past games; strategy implications should carry forward, but no attitudes towards real-live players. But I’m sure plenty of people love meta-game aspects and think Mafia is good precisely when they’re considered important. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/110 "2011-03-07T17:38:11Z")
> [@Glasnost Mafia](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/909): > > I given it a bit of thought and unless the Vigilante comes up with a good read on scum, I think the Vigilante should kill me tonight. And **sach** complains about my soft claims. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/111 "2011-03-07T17:51:12Z")
Did someone claim a recruitment message in the thread? Because the only reason I can see why sach would request a vig kill is if he’s vanilla and worried about being recruited, and that makes no sense if the scum had already (possibly) hit their target. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/112 "2011-03-07T19:44:46Z")
> [@fubbleskag](#): > > I’m following this game in hopes of trying this out at some point. Any pointers for a total newb? I can spoil you if you want, that way you can see the game happening from a full knowledge point of view. See what is happening strategy wise behind the scenes, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/113 "2011-03-07T21:23:51Z")
The way I read **sach** ’s request, he strongly feels that the Vig should be shooting, and he’s offering himself up first to emphasize how strongly he feels about it. Actually, he might even be right: With an open game (and all power roles therefore confirmable), two Town kills a cycle, and at most one non-Town kill a cycle, shrinking the unknown pool really does look like a valid strategy. That said, though, if I were the Vig, I’d start with **Suburban** , _then_ **sach**. Having made that suggestion, **sach** definitely needs to die eventually, but there’s more reason to suspect **Suburban** first. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/114 "2011-03-08T02:26:24Z")
I think the other Masons should claim now. For one thing, between checking the vote record and knowing who each other are, the Scum can probably make a pretty good guess as to who they are, anyway. For another, it gives the Scum the dilemma of whether they should go after the known power roles (who mostly can’t do anything, and are obvious choices for the protector(s)) or the hidden Vig and Jailer (and risk killing vanillas). The other power roles should _not_ claim now. Thinning the unknown pool depends on the Vig remaining alive and unblocked, and the Scum would dearly love to kill the Jailer. As for the Doctor, only the Scum even know if there actually _is_ a doctor, so a claim wouldn’t prove anything (at least, not until a Scum Sleeper shows up dead), plus of course if there is a real Doctor, the Scum would want him dead, too, since he can in practice do everything the Jailer can do and then some. Once the Masons are declared, the Doctor (if there is one) should protect one chosen at random, and the Jailer should choose (based on whatever mojo e’s been choosing so far) to either jail **Mental** or one of the Masons. If I were in the Jailer’s shoes, I would probably choose to target **Mental** again, since I think that the Scum chose not to recruit as a ploy to leave **Mental** defenseless (i.e., there is no Doctor, but they’re assuming Town will assume that there is one), but given that whoever the Jailer is has gone 2 for 2 so far, es judgment is probably better than mine. EDIT: The other power roles (other than the Vig) _will_ eventually have to claim, to make sure that the Vig doesn’t accidentally target them. But given that there’s currently three vanilla claims outstanding, there’s no hurry for that. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/115 "2011-03-08T07:24:38Z")
**sach** always comes up with great ideas: > [@](#): > > I’m feeling punchy tonight. > How about this theoretical? > Jailer jails MentalGuy. > Vig Kills me. > Doc protects me. > > Then we would have proof positive of the Doc’s existence or non-existance and would be able to play the hidden Doc out Cop game to press for a win! > If I’m dead then we know the Doc doesn’t exist yet. > If I’m alive the Doc can move on to protecting the Cop and the jailer knows not to protect the Cop. > The downside is we lose Mahaloth. I really like this. It’d benefit Town hugely to know if there’s a Doctor. If there is (and the town knows it), then the Jailer can let the Doctor protect the Detective, and Town gets free investigations until the Scum manage to find the Doctor. Basically, they’d have to find and kill both the Doctor and the Vig, and then kill the Detective, before the math turns completely against them. Or, of course, there isn’t a Doctor, which means, A, that they know they can’t use that tactic, and B, that the Scum were trying a gambit by deliberately not recruiting. That would ease some of the suspicion on **Suburban** , if he isn’t dead yet, and also draw suspicion on anyone who’s too certain that they did try to recruit. Speaking of which, **special ed** is way too certain that they did try to recruit. I’ve already laid out why I think they didn’t, and the calculation is shifted even further that way by the fact that a Doctor is really valuable when you’ve got an outed, confirmed Detective. Oh, and by the way: If the Scum recruit a Sleeper, can the newly-awakened Doctor use his power that same Night? If the Scum recruit their sleeper, can they continue to send chicken messages despite knowing they’ll have no effect? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/116 "2011-03-08T13:36:30Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If the Scum recruit their sleeper, can they continue to send chicken messages despite knowing they’ll have no effect? The answer to this one is “yes” - red posted late in day 1 clarifying this. ---
**Author:** ![fubbleskag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fubbleskag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fubbleskag)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/117 "2011-03-08T14:01:47Z")
> [@Red\_Skeezix](#): > > I can spoil you if you want, that way you can see the game happening from a full knowledge point of view. See what is happening strategy wise behind the scenes, etc. oh, good idea, please do! ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/118 "2011-03-08T16:16:27Z")
I’m at work right now, and won’t be able to spoil anyone till I get home. Also regarding those questions: \*\*I’ve already answered one. The other one is specified by the order of night operations, so no the newly created doc could not protect anyone. \*\* Sach’s plan to determine if there is a doc produces indeterminite results, since it relies on the actions of other players and their results. If sach is alive tomorrow is it because there is a doctor, or because the vig forgot to shoot? If sach is dead tomorrow is it because there is no doctor, or because the doctor forgot to send in a target? What happens if the jailer decides he doesn’t like the plan and inadvertantly intereferes with it? What do the results mean then? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/119 "2011-03-08T17:27:36Z")
You can’t really plan for Town power roles forgetting to use their powers: That sucks no matter what the plan (or lack thereof) is. As for folks disagreeing, that’s why he’s trying to build a consensus for it: Presumably, if there’s a strong consensus, the power roles will go along with it even if they personally disagree. And has **Wanderers** been paying any attention at all to the last Day? Town has already been thoroughly over the ground of exactly why it’s a really good idea to shrink the vanilla pool starting right now, and why the information **sach** ’s plan will reveal _won’t_ be gotten for free through straightforward analysis of reveals. Oh, and one other benefit in **sach** ’s overall plan: If the sleepers have _not_ yet been awakened, there’s a pretty good chance of killing one of them and producing a survivor. With the game state where it is, a survivor is close to as good as another confirmed Townie. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/120 "2011-03-08T18:48:37Z")
So how would you play the claim as Scum? I’d think you pretty much have to throw one scum into the “not vanilla” pool just to muddy the waters a bit. (Probably with a jailer claim). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259.md?page=7)