# In Soviet Russia, Mafia plays you! (Forbidden Thread for Glasnost Mafia -- No Players!) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 22, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259 "2011-02-22T18:33:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/141 "2011-03-11T16:02:40Z")
I’m almost rooting for **sach** to be the Godfather. That would be too awesome for words. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/142 "2011-03-11T17:38:33Z")
I was thinking the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/143 "2011-03-11T17:42:58Z")
Not really, since he’s set things up such that he’s almost guaranteed _not_ to be investigated. I’m a little puzzled by this from **Storyteller** : > [@](#): > > 1. Three claimed Masons (and Mental Guy!) increases the hazard for the Scum if they, as they most likely must, shoot into the claimed vanilla pool. We want to maximize the chances that the Scum will kill a lynchable player. With Masons in the pool the Scum can comfortably fire into that group hoping to hit the Doctor, but knowing that they have an excellent chance of at least killing a non-lynchable player. My way, if the Scum want a shot at the Doc, they will be at an increased risk of killing a vanilla (compared to a no-additional-claim situation). If they decide not to take this risk and kill a Mason, so much the better for us. I’m puzzled because it seems to make sense… But logically, any information given to the Scum should (assuming they’re playing rationally) make their expected outcomes better or at least unchanged, not worse. I mean, if revealing that information really did hurt Scum, they could just pretend not to have seen it, and undo the harm. Now, of course, that information will also help Town, and it’s quite possible that it helps Town more than it helps Scum and is therefore worthwhile, but that’s not what **Story** is saying, there. Oh, and from **sach** : > [@](#): > > If we want to go totally mechanical about it, we could lynch and vig from the {Suburban Plankton, pedescribe, sachertorte} set and leave the Vig and Doc hidden amongst 2 masons and 3-ish vanillas. Not a bad idea, but one pitfall: It’s possible that **Suburban** is the Doctor, since his vanilla claim came before the sleepers were awakened. I don’t think this is likely (much more likely would be that he was the Sleeper who got recruited to Scum), but it is a risk. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/144 "2011-03-11T22:33:51Z")
One advantage of sach’s plan that I don’t think anyone’s mentioned yet is that it allows the vig to go after whoever he/she thinks is most scummy, rather than being restricted to the 3 claimed vanillas. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/145 "2011-03-11T23:23:40Z")
OK, crazy idea, but I think that if the Masons claim, it’s likely to give enough information to nab one or more Scum. Consider: The Scum hit the jailer last Night, which was a pretty good outcome for them, but that probably wasn’t their goal, since there was little to point to **Wolverine** as the jailer. Most likely, they looked at the voting pattern around **Mahaloth** , and tried to guess who the other Masons were. The voting pattern gave them a shortlist of potential Masons, and they then eliminated any of their own number who were on that list, and apparently **Wolverine** was at the top of who was left. Well, Town can do the vote analysis just as well as Scum can, and so can deduce who was on that shortlist, and if the real Masons come out, that’ll give Town an opportunity to figure out who the Scum then removed from that list, i.e., some Scum names. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/146 "2011-03-13T04:19:43Z")
This game seems to have been derailed by discussions about some sort of mass claim that’s been very slow to get rolling. It would be amusing if the scum decided to try to get the town all talking about a plan instead of who is scum, while making sure that no one can actually agree on a plan. Personally, just about everyone looks like scum to me; everyone either seems to act “too much” like a townie for my taste or is doing their best to lurk and be unobtrusive. I guess part of this game’s charm is how you try to draw the line between truly pro-town behavior and behavior that just seems like it. I’ve played face-to-face games in this genre and found them unappealing (partly because I sucked as either faction); I never imagined the forum version of this to actually be nearly as interesting as it is, although I put that more on the greater variety of power roles that makes things more than just trying to read others’ minds. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/147 "2011-03-13T04:54:36Z")
Online games tend to have more power roles than face-to-face just because they’re larger. You’ll almost never get 20 people to sit down at once around a table to play, but that many is easy online. But a Mafia game that size is also pretty much impossible to balance without power roles. Of course, there are also other differences, like the lack of body language cues and the greater time for discussion and analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/148 "2011-03-13T16:43:44Z")
Quoth **peeker** : > [@](#): > > i never thought i would say this. i wish chronos was here. My advice would actually be pretty simple, and I’m surprised that nobody else has offered it. Either plan (build the confirmed pool or shrink the unconfirmed pool) would have a good chance for giving Town the game, but each plan has a risk of failure (the confirming plan, by the Scum getting lucky and hitting the Doctor; the pool-shrinking plan, by the Scum getting lucky and hitting the Vig). Now, the two plans are incompatible in such a way that they can’t follow both indefinitely: For the confirmation plan, the Doctor must stay hidden, but for the Vig plan, the Doctor must claim to avoid being hit by the Vig. But they _can_ follow them both for a little while, at least. Don’t claim anything yet, let the Vig kill one of the known vanillas toNight, and see what the morning brings. Maybe the Scum will have killed the Doctor or the Vig, in which case move to the plan that doesn’t require that power role. Maybe the Scum will hit a vanilla, in which case I think Town can force a win with either plan. Maybe there will be more people spontaneously claiming vanilla, in which case the indeterminate plan can continue yet another Night. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/149 "2011-03-14T17:53:44Z")
I’ve started up a new Mafia game, if anyone is interested: [SS Incorrigible](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=600691). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/150 "2011-03-14T21:35:31Z")
**Manwich** presents a problem. To be clear, the reason for his absence is completely, 100% understandable, and I don’t want to imply otherwise. But those who still are playing the game have to deal with that somehow. If he’s just vanilla, it doesn’t matter too much, but he might also be a power role, which would throw a monkey wrench into Town’s plans, or a Scum, which might be problematic for theirs. I would recommend that **Mahaloth** put him on autopilot, as follows: If he’s a Mason, he “claims” if his partners do. If he’s a Scum, then he does what his teammates say (including possibly false-claiming Mason). If he’s the Doctor, he always protects **Mental** , and if he’s the Vig, he always shoots someone who claimed vanilla (picked at random) if there are any left, or always shoots a non-claimed Mason (also chosen at random) after the Masons claim. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/151 "2011-03-14T23:01:45Z")
Red is the mod, not Maha. I’m guessing Suburban is Town, simply because a scum Suburban would have (somewhat plausibly) claimed Doc. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/152 "2011-03-14T23:06:10Z")
Yeah, I’m leaning Town more and more on him as the Day goes on. And the case against him is weak–other than “Well, he was the most probable target for a recruitment that may or may not have happened,” there’s not much to it at all. I’m actually somewhat shocked, if he’s a vanilla Townie, that the Scum did NOT try to recruit him. He has never claimed to have received an attempt. That’s the only thing that leans me toward his being Scum–if I were Scum, I would have gone after him at some point. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/153 "2011-03-14T23:40:55Z")
So, Suburban: Why didn’t you claim doc? ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/154 "2011-03-15T01:54:44Z")
I planned initially to claim Doc, but real life intruded for most of Day 3, so I really didn’t have a chance to…and then with the various ‘plans’ it just made zero sense for the Doc to claim unprovoked. I was a bit surprised the Scum tried to recruit me after my ‘slip’ (and it was exactly that), because I was the ‘obvious’ choice. I think if I had been more on my game I could have milked it a bit longer, but it wasn’t to be. I think the Town is in a fantastic position in this game, but I wouldn’t be shocked if they wound up blowing it. The total lack of movement on any sort of claim Today suggests to me that here is a lot of non-vocal opposition to the idea. What I said about it being ‘no fun’ was genuine, and I think a number of the Townsfolk might agree but are afraid to be too vocal about it for fear of seeming Scummy. But if the Scum can get lucky and find the Vig in the next couple Nights, the momentum that the town has remaining at the moment could disappear completely. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/155 "2011-03-15T03:12:52Z")
> [@](#): > > I planned initially to claim Doc, but real life intruded for most of Day 3, so I really didn’t have a chance to…and then with the various ‘plans’ it just made zero sense for the Doc to claim unprovoked. It wouldn’t have made sense to claim unprovoked, but you weren’t unprovoked: You were getting lynched. Worst-case (for you) scenario, you would probably have gotten counter-claimed and lynched anyway, but that would have delivered one of the power roles you’re looking for to your teammates. And **Tom** , I knew that, of course, but **Mahaloth** has modded so many games around here by now that I guess I just take him for granted. Fortunately moot now, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/156 "2011-03-15T03:25:41Z")
Incidentally, I’ve now gone completely over to the mason-claim plan for one simple reason: Mahaloth drew a fair number of votes, and it’s quite possible that a power-role claim would yield one town player who had voted for Maha and two who hadn’t (plus a scum muddying the waters); that would pretty much paint a big target on the doc. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/157 "2011-03-15T13:50:03Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It wouldn’t have made sense to claim unprovoked, but you weren’t unprovoked: You were getting lynched. Worst-case (for you) scenario, you would probably have gotten counter-claimed and lynched anyway, but that would have delivered one of the power roles you’re looking for to your teammates. That’s a great point, and I wish I had a great explanation. But I don’t. I can’t explain it…I was just ‘off’ all game. Not my finest Mafia Moment, certainly… ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/158 "2011-03-15T14:09:19Z")
Well, you probably would have ended up dead sooner or later; one bonus is that you at least didn’t risk exposing your scum buddies this way. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/159 "2011-03-15T14:54:18Z")
I definitely would have wound up dead before morning in any case. I think the only real chance the Scum have at this point is if they find the Vig, and soon. Although, the longer the Town keeps \*talking \*about mass claims without actually \*making \*one, the better off things get for Scum… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259/160 "2011-03-15T16:12:54Z")
They were right to put it on hold this past Day, since they still have plenty of vanillas outstanding. The primary benefit to the Masons claiming is that the Vig will then know not to shoot them, and he can avoid shooting them toNight anyway. Come Dawn, though, I expect we’ll see that Mason claim, unless the Scum manage to hit the Vig toNight, in which case it becomes irrelevant. And really, the Scum need to kill _all_ of the power roles to have a chance. Even if they kill the Vig toNight, there’s still a hidden Doctor and confirmed Detective, a deadly combination for Scum. So they need to find and kill the Doctor, kill **MentalGuy** , and then find and kill the Vig (preferably in that order), all without killing vanillas, and even then I think the best they can hope for is a three-handed endgame with no confirmed. Incidentally, I think it may have been a mistake for the Scum to recruit, at least after the first Night. Everyone was looking at the points and saying, oh, yeah, a goon is worth much more than a doctor. While that may be true in general, it’s probably not true in the specific case where there’s a proven Detective. And if they hadn’t, they could still make people think that they had, paving the way for a believed false-claim of Doctor (at least until a real sleeper was killed, but that could buy a lot of time). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-soviet-russia-mafia-plays-you-forbidden-thread-for-glasnost-mafia-no-players/572259.md?page=9)