# In ST TNG, is the USS Enterprise the ship where careers go to die? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 5, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403 "2011-06-05T16:55:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/181 "2011-08-23T16:58:24Z")
It was unreasonable for either Adama or Cain to act as if the rules were in place. The Colonies were _gone_. There was no longer a continuous chain of command. Cain’s very first words to Adama – “Welcome back to the Colonial Fleet” – were delusional in the extreme. ---
**Author:** ![carlb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carlb/32/5930_2.png) [@carlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlb)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/182 "2011-08-23T17:10:41Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It was unreasonable for either Adama or Cain to act as if the rules were in place. The Colonies were _gone_. There was no longer a continuous chain of command. > > Cain’s very first words to Adama – “Welcome back to the Colonial Fleet” – were delusional in the extreme. But there _was_ a continuous chain of command, they just had to go pretty far down it to find people who were still alive to execute that command. I don’t think Roslin, Adama, or Cain (at least in this aspect) were unreasonable at all. Maintaining a semblance of continuity of government and institutions with which the remaining humans were familiar provided a framework for getting things done, and would have had the psychological effect of providing some hope that humanity could continue. I don’t think those institutions were used particularly effectively (I think one of Roslin’s first acts should have been declaration of martial law, but we’re getting even farther off topic), but their mere existence was not at all unreasonable. I would expect, over time, that these institutions would have to morph and change and adapt to the circumstances, but using the existing structures as a starting point seems pretty logical and reasonable to me. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/183 "2011-08-23T17:20:09Z")
> [@carlb](#): > > using the existing structures as a starting point seems pretty logical and reasonable to me. Using the existing structures as a starting point for the Galactica and the civilian society that it supported, yes. They should have considered _that_ as the inheriting society, government, and military. Cain, not being part of that, should not have been treated as part of that chain. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/184 "2011-08-23T17:32:47Z")
I didn’t see the Cain episodes. But Roslin was, as far down the line of succession as she was (SecEduc?), the sole survivor of the Colonial Cabinet and the lawful President, wasn’t she? Is there really any doubt that she held legitimate civil authority which Cain was bound to obey? ---
**Author:** ![FordTaurusSHO94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f07891/32.png) [@FordTaurusSHO94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordTaurusSHO94)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/185 "2011-08-23T17:58:33Z")
> [@Bakhesh](#): > > Just a thought, but in the TNG universe, what has medical science done with regard to longevity? Aside from Deforrest Kelly turning up in the first episode, I can’t remember much reference to it, but surely this is a factor. > > At the moment, people can have at most 40-odd years in the military, but if there have been significant improvements in lifespan, which considering medical science today seems likely, then a star fleet career may last much longer. If so, then it seems much more plausible that someone will gladly stay at the same rank for a much longer period. Otherwise, you are quickly going to end up with a surplus of Admirals. Picard was 74 at the end of Nemesis and didn’t look like he was going to give up his command any time soon. That was after atleast two heart replacements. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/186 "2011-08-23T21:47:28Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I didn’t see the Cain episodes. But Roslin was, as far down the line of succession as she was (SecEduc?), the sole survivor of the Colonial Cabinet and the lawful President, wasn’t she? Is there really any doubt that she held legitimate civil authority which Cain was bound to obey? This. Laura Roslin was the President of the Colonies, making her Admiral Cain’s boss in every legal sense of the word. ---
**Author:** ![carlb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carlb/32/5930_2.png) [@carlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlb)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/187 "2011-08-23T23:03:05Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > This. Laura Roslin was the President of the Colonies, making her Admiral Cain’s boss in every legal sense of the word. Exactly. And Cain’s disdain for Roslin was, for me, the first sign that something was not right. I could understand her being surprised and a little dubious that the Secretary of Education got promoted in one stroke to the Presidency, but after that you get over your shock and get along with the program. If Roslin is _not_ the legitimate President, then there is no Presidency, and then no legitimate government, therefore no lawful authority from which your military rank derives. If you _are_ an Admiral in the Colonial Fleet, then you subject yourself to the legitimate civilian authority, in this case Laura Roslin. Look, I’m not at all arguing that Cain was, ultimately, right or a good person. But her initial interactions with Roslin and Adama were not inappropriate, and from one point of view were entirely proper and correct. Even her, “welcome back to the fleet.” It was certainly a dick move, but not incorrect. The fleet is wherever the Admiral is; in a sense Adama’s rag-tag fugitive fleet were detached from the Colonial Fleet (or what was left of it; namely _Pegasus_). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2011, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/188 "2011-08-24T05:10:57Z")
Of course then it comes down to one’s power base not deriving from democratic civil authority, but from the loyalty of one’s subordinates. Democracy’s a good form of government but it’s not the only one - a military dictatorship like Cain’s has numerous real-world analogues that have lasted for decades. Personally, I thought the rapidity with which Cain and Adama turned on each other was improbable, given the circumstances, and I still don’t believe the circumstances of Cain’s eventual death was anything but a highly contrived and unlikely plot twist. But, then, the show’s title is _Battlestar Galactica_, so the _Pegasus_ had to go sooner or later. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/189 "2011-08-24T18:29:52Z")
Well, that and the Nerdgasm that was the Pegasus’ last stand. ---
**Author:** ![carlb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carlb/32/5930_2.png) [@carlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlb)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/190 "2011-08-24T23:51:49Z")
> [@Unintentionally\_Blank](#): > > Well, that and the Nerdgasm that was the Pegasus’ last stand. Almost as awesome as the Adama Maneuver TM ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/191 "2011-08-26T00:05:19Z")
**Acsenray** , you’re right. There’s nothing inherent that there must be commissioned officers and enlisted personnel, there’s nothing inherent that says the existing structure must be followed. Start over, make Admiral the bottom rung if you want. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Possibly it is, but the real-life William Sitgreaves Cox was referenced in _Starship Troopers_: I recall that one, too, but that’s not the specific one I mean. The one I mean (that I think is also historical), the midshipman took over command because there was no other officer. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/192 "2011-08-26T03:19:57Z")
Really, if you make Ensign the lowest rank in the military, you will fundamentally end up with the exact same system, just with the Privates getting to wear gold bars while they spend their time answering the phones or mopping the hallways. They might get paid better, or be required to have a college degree, but they will still get stuck with all the low-experience hole-digging jobs that privates were doing otherwise, and the minimum level of experience-based competence will simply be bumped up to a higher rank than it was before. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/193 "2011-08-26T12:23:33Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Really, if you make Ensign the lowest rank in the military, you will fundamentally end up with the exact same system, just with the Privates getting to wear gold bars while they spend their time answering the phones or mopping the hallways. They might get paid better, or be required to have a college degree, but they will still get stuck with all the low-experience hole-digging jobs that privates were doing otherwise, and the minimum level of experience-based competence will simply be bumped up to a higher rank than it was before. Sure, but in a couple hundred years, peeling spuds and mopping toilets will be considered “bettering yourself”. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/194 "2011-08-26T12:27:28Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Sure, but in a couple hundred years, peeling spuds and mopping toilets will be considered “bettering yourself”. > > -Joe Certainly, there is probably a holodeck sim for that sort of thing. An argument _could_ be made for most of the jobs traditionally done by the enlisted troops being automated in the future (ie: replicators that produce pre-peeled spuds and toilets that clean themselves with a miniature baryon sweep.) ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/195 "2011-12-22T10:34:59Z")
Was’nt Sisko a Commander at the start of DS9? He was promoted for some strange reason, even though his position remained the same and he was not in for a transfer. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/196 "2011-12-22T10:46:15Z")
Yes, but you can’t have Captain Kirk, Captain Picard, Captain Janeway and the black dude a lower ranked Commander. Also with the addition of the Defiant such a craft could require a Captain’s rank. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/197 "2011-12-22T10:50:00Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Was’nt Sisko a Commander at the start of DS9? He was promoted for some strange reason, even though his position remained the same and he was not in for a transfer. DS9 was a dead-end post before the discovery of the wormhole. I think Starfleet promoted him out of embarrassment upon realizing that the person dealing with the angry leaders of quadrant-spanning empires was a lowly commander. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/198 "2011-12-22T12:32:40Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Was’nt Sisko a Commander at the start of DS9? He was promoted for some strange reason, even though his position remained the same and he was not in for a transfer. In the Star Trek world, people often get promoted just as a matter of personal merit, with no change in posting required. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/199 "2011-12-22T13:49:26Z")
That happens sometimes in real life too. It might be a Commander’s Billet, or it might even be a Captain’s billet and they just expected Sisko to make rank while he was there (as I recall, it’s never indicated that he’s a lackluster officer, he just preferred shore duty to gallivanting about the galaxy). ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/200 "2011-12-22T13:49:37Z")
So, the deck clearner and the supply clerk can be Admirals while the Ships commander can be a Petty officer? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403.md?page=11)