# In ST TNG, is the USS Enterprise the ship where careers go to die? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 5, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403 "2011-06-05T16:55:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/201 "2011-12-22T14:10:21Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > So, the deck clearner and the supply clerk can be Admirals while the Ships commander can be a Petty officer? When you write your screenplay set in the AK84 Interstellar Confederation, the sky’s the limit, baby! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/202 "2011-12-22T14:42:43Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > So, the deck clearner and the supply clerk can be Admirals while the Ships commander can be a Petty officer? Did someone say something that would lead you to that conclusion? I don’t think so. No no one has bothered to work out the comprehensive details of how rank works in Starfleet. And why should they? It’s not a real military service. It serves as the setting for fictional works. All we really have to know that it’s somewhat similar to military services we are familiar with in real life, but isn’t exactly the same as what we know. It’s fiction, dude. It’s there to serve the story. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/203 "2011-12-22T17:42:57Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > DS9 was a dead-end post before the discovery of the wormhole. I think Starfleet promoted him out of embarrassment upon realizing that the person dealing with the angry leaders of quadrant-spanning empires was a lowly commander. I never thought of it as a “dead-end post”. But it started off as a post that didn;t need a Capt. But when they found the wormhole and DS9 became the front door to new reaches of space, they felt the post required at least a Capt. Sisko was doing a great job running the station. He had the respect of both his Starfleet and Bajoran crew, as well as the leadership of Bajor. So replacing him wasn;t called for. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/204 "2011-12-22T17:57:16Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > At that time, it seems as if someone had to die (of old age) in order for others to get promotions. The Mirror Universe took a more direct, impatient approach. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/205 "2011-12-22T17:58:17Z")
> [@Bakhesh](#): > > Just a thought, but in the TNG universe, what has medical science done with regard to longevity? Aside from Deforrest Kelly turning up in the first episode, I can’t remember much reference to it, but surely this is a factor. > > At the moment, people can have at most 40-odd years in the military, but if there have been significant improvements in lifespan, which considering medical science today seems likely, then a star fleet career may last much longer. If so, then it seems much more plausible that someone will gladly stay at the same rank for a much longer period. Otherwise, you are quickly going to end up with a surplus of Admirals. I know this is an old post, but there is a commander in the Star Trek novels called Elias Vaughn, a human who is at least 101 and is described as in robust physical health. The reason he is still a commander is because he is a former special operative who has turned down promotion in order to keep a low profile. I realize that the novels aren’t canon, but in recent years, the novels have been held to their own continuity, much like the various Star Wars novels. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/206 "2011-12-23T03:20:42Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > So, the deck clearner and the supply clerk can be Admirals while the Ships commander can be a Petty officer? Not quite but the Enterprise-A had at least three captains at once (Kirk, Spock and Scotty) while all the people still doing the lackey jobs were commanders. It’s worse in the Abrams verse, where one can be promoted from suspended cadet to captain of the flagship in a single mission! ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/207 "2011-12-23T14:15:22Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > …It’s worse in the Abrams verse, where one can be promoted from suspended cadet to captain of the flagship in a single mission! I know, jeez, I hated that. Still a fun movie, though. ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/208 "2011-12-23T14:53:43Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > Not quite but the Enterprise-A had at least three captains at once (Kirk, Spock and Scotty) while all the people still doing the lackey jobs were commanders. I would argue (or handwave, I s’pose) that by saying that by the movies the _Enterprise_ was training or special missions. Still, that’s a lot of captains on one starship. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/209 "2011-12-23T14:58:44Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > I would argue (or handwave, I s’pose) that by saying that by the movies the _Enterprise_ was training or special missions. Still, that’s a lot of captains on one starship. In the U.S. Navy, it’s not unheard of for a ship to have two captains. Three isn’t a huge leap forward. But this kind of stuff doesn’t really need wankery. It’s enough to say that rank in Starfleet doesn’t exactly match up with rank as we think of it in the U.S. armed forces. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/210 "2011-12-23T15:21:55Z")
I probably already posted this in this thread, but StarFleet wasn’t supposed to be primarily a Military Organization. [Memory Alpha says:](http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet) > [@](#): > > The extent to which Starfleet may be considered a military organization is somewhat questionable. Nicholas Meyer remarked of Starfleet’s militarism, “It existed to some extent in the [original] television series but Gene Roddenberry was very adamant that the Starfleet was not a military or a militaristic operation […] I thought it was at least as militaristic as, say, the Coast Guard.” (audio commentary, Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (Special Edition) DVD) Meyer also wrote about these ideological differences in his autobiographical book The View from the Bridge - Memories of Star Trek and a Life in Hollywood. Therein, he recalled, “[Roddenberry] was emphatic that Starfleet was not a military organization but something akin to the Coast Guard. This struck me as manifestly absurd, for what were Kirk’s adventures but a species of gunboat diplomacy wherein the Federation (read America, read the Anglo-Saxons) was always right and aliens were–in Kipling’s queasy phrase–‘lesser breads’? Yes, there was lip service to minority participation, but it was clear who was driving the boat.” (The View from the Bridge - Memories of Star Trek and a Life in Hollywood, hardcover ed., p. 81) On another instance, Meyer observed that, beginning with Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (which Meyer himself directed), later Star Trek productions placed more emphasis on the militaristic perspective of Starfleet than the original series had. (audio commentary, Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (Special Edition) DVD) Those who were uncomfortable about Starfleet being depicted in a militaristic fashion in Star Trek II included not only Roddenberry but also Uhura actress Nichelle Nichols. In her book Beyond Uhura (hardcover ed., p. 248), she stated, “Portraying Starfleet as a military organization flew in the face of everything Star Trek stood for […] At one point I forcefully but tactfully reminded Meyer and Harve [Bennet] that Starfleet was the philosophical descendant of NASA, not the Air Force.” Yes, it’s silly. “We are not military, but we represent our government with big guns!” ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/211 "2011-12-23T15:23:57Z")
This argument was what got me a personal reply from Phil Farrand of the Nitpickers Guild. He basically responded to my two page letter with: “Yeah, but …” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/212 "2011-12-23T16:05:46Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > …in Kipling’s queasy phrase–‘lesser breads’?.. You mean like pumpernickel? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/213 "2011-12-23T16:14:59Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > You mean like pumpernickel? One Klingon did call it a “Homo Sapien’s Club”. “Homo Sapiens Only Club”? I forget. Star Trek VI. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/214 "2011-12-23T16:30:33Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > One Klingon did call it a “Homo Sapien’s Club” … Star Trek VI. Ignoring the Vulcan sitting right there at the table with him, and the many other aliens who are members of the Federation. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/215 "2011-12-23T17:02:50Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > I probably already posted this in this thread, but StarFleet wasn’t supposed to be primarily a Military Organization. > > [Memory Alpha says:](http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet) > > Yes, it’s silly. “We are not military, but we represent our government with big guns!” True. However, during TOS run, the colonial empires were still in living memory. in those empires it was not unknown for a person who wax the nearest agent of a government to assume whatever duties that needed to be done. It was not exactly out if the ordinary for the military unit posted in some far away colony to double as an explorer, taxman, police, magistrate, emergency management force. In space, I can see StarFleet as just this. Indeed in the original series that’s exactly they seemed to be. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/216 "2011-12-23T17:58:16Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Ignoring the Vulcan sitting right there at the table with him, and the many other aliens who are members of the Federation. But it does appear that, on screen, at least, especially during Kirk’s era, Humans make up a large majority of crews. I’ve always wondered and fanwanked that Humans, being new to space, and right out of a devastating global war, were seen as overly enthusiastic and optimistic about their role in the galaxy, and their ideas about an interstellar government/entity. The majority of the other races (Vulcan, Andorian, Orion, Tellarite) had been in space for centuries already, and fought a few wars against each other. They had become more… cynical. But the Humans come along, all full of sass and energy, and actually volunteer to put themselves in harm’s way in Starfleet. (Both exploration and war are risky buisnesses.) Heh. As a bonus, they breed like rabbits. So fine, let them. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/217 "2011-12-23T18:20:50Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > You mean like pumpernickel? Rye. Don’t blame me, I just copy&paste! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/218 "2011-12-23T18:54:18Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Ignoring the Vulcan sitting right there at the table with him So the only token alien at the table is the half-human one? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/219 "2011-12-23T21:44:37Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > So the only token alien at the table is the half-human one? Ooo, ouch. Spock was nobody’s token. **mlees** , I like your theory a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/220 "2011-12-23T21:51:48Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > But it does appear that, on screen, at least, especially during Kirk’s era, Humans make up a large majority of crews. I’m not sure we can conclude that. Sure, humans make up a majority of _Kirk’s_ crew, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t crews were Andorians aren’t the vast majority, or Vulcans or Tellarites or so forth. It doesn’t even seem unreasonable to me that Kirk’s Enterprise was majority human. Vulcans like things a lot hotter than humans and Andorians a lot colder. Spock was able to put up with the differnce, but a lot of Vulcans might not have been. For that matter, I suspect that a Vulcan ship’s artificial gravity is set higher than a Terran ship’s, and that few humans would want to put up with that for months at a time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403.md?page=12)