# In ST TNG, is the USS Enterprise the ship where careers go to die? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 5, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403 "2011-06-05T16:55:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/61 "2011-06-08T15:35:47Z")
Wow. Just wow. I mean, I could sort of see turning down _one_ command, especially early in his tenure as First Officer and wanting more time with Picard on the Flagship and all. But 3 (or 4)? No wonder he was First Officer for 15 years. Every time he turned down a command, he got a five year penalty before the next offer came up. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/62 "2011-06-08T16:26:14Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > If you believe Q. Q didn’t say that Riker declined command of Voyager. He said that hethought Riker would get this command, which is not quite the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![tanstaafl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba8739/32.png) [@tanstaafl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tanstaafl)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/63 "2011-06-08T18:56:47Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Yeah, there’s no good in-story explanation. “It didn’t happen that way. Shut up.” I think it’s an artifact of TOS where the main characters were officers (exept Rand, and perhaps Nurse Chapel). It created the impression that Star Trek didn’t have enlisted personnel. So Next Gen seemed to think everyone was an officer, and it wasn’t until later someone realized they were calling O’Brien “Transporter Chief”, and “Chief” is an NCO position in our Navy, so obviously he must be an NCO rather than a leutenant. Oops. According to the old “Making of Star Trek”, everyone on the Enterprise _was_ an officer. That was a decision Rodenberry made. He felt that everyone on the Enterprise was the equivalent of an astronaut and so should be an officer. So, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/64 "2011-06-08T21:34:56Z")
Once Roddenberry was gone, Brannon and Braga decided they could impose retroactive changes on the universe, and just ignore the inconsistencies. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/65 "2011-06-08T21:40:07Z")
Fanwank: Who’s to say Starfleet didn’t just change their rank structure in the 80-some years between TOS and TNG? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/66 "2011-06-08T21:43:22Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Fanwank: Who’s to say Starfleet didn’t just change their rank structure in the 80-some years between TOS and TNG? I’ll buy that. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/67 "2011-06-08T21:43:57Z")
Let’s just assume they changed rank structure every time they changed uniforms. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/68 "2011-06-08T23:58:39Z")
The Temporal Cold War messed up _everything_. Or maybe a wizard did it. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/69 "2011-06-09T16:54:43Z")
So, in Kirk’s ship the guy cleaning the transporters was an officer? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/70 "2011-06-09T17:29:08Z")
No, in TOS there were mentions of a “crewman” rank. [Crewman | Memory Alpha | Fandom](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Crewman) Yeoman Rand was not an officer in the TOS years, but became one later. [Janice Rand | Memory Alpha | Fandom](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Janice_Rand) ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/71 "2011-08-16T13:45:31Z")
How is promotion done incidentally, except for Worf and Geordi everyone seems to have a haphazard promotion. Picard was named Captain of the Star Gazer when he had been in service only a few years and yet Janeway outranks him eventually. In the new Star Terk; Kirk goes from Cadet to Captain. In three days. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/72 "2011-08-16T13:53:17Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > How is promotion done incidentally, except for Worf and Geordi everyone seems to have a haphazard promotion. You want haphazard? Worf got promoted to doing Tasha Yar’s job and kept doing his old job. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/73 "2011-08-16T15:56:07Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > At that time, it seems as if someone had to die (of old age) in order for others to get promotions. Or they could be, y’know, “relieved” of command. Ref: mirror universe. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/74 "2011-08-16T16:20:53Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > Perhaps someone with a better knowledge of military history knows better but in the 19th and 20th century wasn’t promotion awfully slow in peacetime army and navies?I am thinking of the British navy in the 19th century…so many ships were decommissioned after the Napolenic wars that many officers had to stay on half pay and stay where they where. Historically, peacetime militaries have been pretty stingy with the promotions- relatively small forces of professional soldiers meant that generally someone had to die or retire for someone else to move up. Stretches of 15-20 years were not uncommon- Eisenhower spent 16 years as a Major between 1920 and 1936, and Nimitz spent 11 years as a Captain between 1927 and 1938. Napoleonic militaries were even stranger, with less formal procedures meaning that there could and were oddities like 30 year old midshipmen, and 50 year old Lieutenants, and 21 year old Post Captains (Horatio Nelson). Modern militaries tend to “up or out” people- you either pass for your next rank by some certain point, or they throw you out. Flag officers also have a fixed time in grade- none of the old style 75 year old admirals and generals these days. What this means in practical terms is that modern military ranks and times are much more like wartime militaries than before- no stagnating for 10-15 years at one rank. I’d have thought Starfleet would be more of an “up or out” type organization, where after a refusal or two, they’d eventually boot Riker and Picard, but I suppose there might be some tolerance of highly skilled specialists in some positions, even command. ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/75 "2011-08-16T16:33:11Z")
Why would there be a shortage of officers after Wolf 359? Half the fleet was destroyed, but (as seen in the first episode of DS9), some of the crews of these ships escaped. So, you’ve suddenly got all these crew members, but no ships to put them on. If anything, you would have a surplus of officers ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/76 "2011-08-16T16:35:53Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’d have thought Starfleet would be more of an “up or out” type organization, where after a refusal or two, they’d eventually boot Riker and Picard, but I suppose there might be some tolerance of highly skilled specialists in some positions, even command. From what we have seen, Starfleet personnel pretty much stay in their positions as long as they want to. Anyway, Starfleet is all about offering its members rewarding and fulfilling lives. Booting them would violate that mission. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/77 "2011-08-16T19:56:20Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Anyway, Starfleet is all about offering its members rewarding and fulfilling lives. Booting them would violate that mission. I thought the _Federation_ was all about offering its _citizens_ yadda yadda… In any case, the absurd promotion of Kirk from 3rd-year cadet to O6 in the recent film puts to rest any notion that the creators of _Star Trek_ give a rat’s ass about military plausibility. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/78 "2011-08-16T20:00:37Z")
> [@bump](#): > > …Napoleonic militaries were even stranger, with less formal procedures meaning that there could and were oddities like 30 year old midshipmen, and 50 year old Lieutenants, and 21 year old Post Captains (Horatio Nelson)… In the century of peace that followed Trafalgar, the common Royal Navy toast was “Bloody war and quick promotion”! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/79 "2011-08-16T20:39:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I thought the _Federation_ was all about offering its _citizens_ yadda yadda… > > In any case, the absurd promotion of Kirk from 3rd-year cadet to O6 in the recent film puts to rest any notion that the creators of _Star Trek_ give a rat’s ass about military plausibility. This is a guess, but I’m almost positive that there are or were military organizations over the course of human history in which this kind of thing is or was possible. The modern American model of military service with its own assumptions is not the sole conceivable way of organizing a military service. I find almost nothing to be _implausible_ about fictional military service, however _unlikely_ they might seem to us from our own perspectives. For a long time, officers of the British Army advanced in rank by _purchasing_ their commissions. If this can happen, almost anything can. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/80 "2011-08-16T20:45:37Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I thought the _Federation_ was all about offering its _citizens_ yadda yadda… > > In any case, the absurd promotion of Kirk from 3rd-year cadet to O6 in the recent film puts to rest any notion that the creators of _Star Trek_ give a rat’s ass about military plausibility. As has been pointed out, Starfleet is not the United States military. Indeed, there isn’t even a United States at any point that there is a Starfleet in the Star Trek setting. So presumably they have their own ways of doing things (For instance, in the US Navy, you will rarely see the entire command staff of a ship go ashore with the chief surgeon and a couple Marines, leaving the rest of the crew in the capable hands of some lieutenant.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403.md?page=5)