# In ST TNG, is the USS Enterprise the ship where careers go to die? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 5, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403 "2011-06-05T16:55:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/81 "2011-08-16T21:43:25Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > How is promotion done incidentally, except for Worf and Geordi everyone seems to have a haphazard promotion. Picard was named Captain of the Star Gazer when he had been in service only a few years and yet Janeway outranks him eventually. > > In the new Star Terk; Kirk goes from Cadet to Captain. In three days. _Captain_ can either be a _rank_, **or** a _job description._ Small ships can be commanded by lower ranks, but the ship’s commander is always referred-to as _Captain_ as a matter of courtesy. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/82 "2011-08-16T22:12:58Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > How is promotion done incidentally, except for Worf and Geordi everyone seems to have a haphazard promotion. You mean there’s supposed to be a _plan_ for promotion? :smack: Star Trek was dreamed up by a guy who’s personal opinions about how his futuristic world should work overruled any idea of plausibility, systematic functioning, or coherence. He wanted ALL Starfleet members to be officers. He wanted a society that had done away with all internal strife - humanity was having strife with other races and planets, but not with their own - except for the odd criminal and terrorist. And occasional malfunctioning computer. He wanted a bright future where everybody had the best of opportunities to grow and develop, nobody came from a backwater hellhole and had to live in poverty. I’m not sure if the idea of “no money” was Roddenberry’s, or somebody else’s interpretation based upon not ever seeing financial transactions, but it fits with the Utopia Roddenberry envisioned. The universe was then shaped by writers who were more concerned with the requirements of each individual story than any consistency, overall compatibility, or sense. Couple that with the third season with active efforts to sabotage the meaning to prove a point, and you get a gigantic mess. Then get Next Gen with Roddenberry dead and new senior decision makers, with their own ideas about how the universe should work. Couple in new writers wanting to change the way the universe works to suit their own desires. Add a couple more rounds of shows and movies trying real hard to beat the horse back to life. > [@bump](#): > > I’d have thought Starfleet would be more of an “up or out” type organization, where after a refusal or two, they’d eventually boot Riker and Picard, but I suppose there might be some tolerance of highly skilled specialists in some positions, even command. Starfleet is Much more about everyone achieving their own level of performance and job satisfaction, rather than servicing the need of an organization or society as a whole. Right? By the way, why boot Picard? The premise for Picard was that with the extended life spans of humanity due to medical intervention and stuff, Picard was supposed to be entering the “prime” of his life when he achieved captaincy of the Enterprise. There’s no need for him to rush and get promoted to admiral - he was ideal captain material for some time to go. > [@Acsenray](#): > > For a long time, officers of the British Army advanced in rank by _purchasing_ their commissions. If this can happen, almost anything can. But those militaries made no illusions about being meritocracies. They were much more about status than ability. Whereas modern militaries are presumed to be _ideal_\* meritocracies - where it doesn’t matter who you are or where you come from, only your abilities and performance. Star Trek is in a utopic future, so the expectation is for it to be even moreso. But even with Kirk pulling off that super duper rescue of Earth by destruction of the Romulan mining ship, there’s still plenty of reason to expect _some level_ of time to gain experience and grow into a role. Graduate him early and assign him to Enterprise as Ensign? Certainly. Bump his promotion to Leutenant JG? Plausible. Knock him up to Leutenant? Stretching. Make him First Officer? Getting Nuts. Assign him Captain? What are you smoking? Kirk changed from being a highly seasoned, well-balanced officer on the fasttrack because of ambition and ability to a snot-nosed jerkwad with a chip on his shoulder who lucked in to saving the day. He may have had loads of ability and natural leadership - when not being a flaming asshole - but he _needed_ a ton of discipline dumped on him before he’d make the first rate Captain he was in TOS. The reboot ruined Kirk. * * * \*They really aren’t there yet. I mean, DADT just got repealed. There’s still lots of internal religious pressure in some organizations. There are probably other ways the ideal isn’t actually in place. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/83 "2011-08-16T22:15:01Z")
**Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor,** so you’re saying the Kirk was an Ensign _captain_? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/84 "2011-08-16T22:23:58Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > But those militaries made no illusions about being meritocracies. They were much more about status than ability. Whereas modern militaries are presumed to be _ideal_\* meritocracies - where it doesn’t matter who you are or where you come from, only your abilities and performance. Star Trek is in a utopic future, so the expectation is for it to be even moreso. I don’t see how this contradicts anything I said. An “up-or-out” policy is not necessary for a meritocracy. Indeed, one might argue that “up-or-out” is anti-meritocratic. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/85 "2011-08-17T00:21:53Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > _Captain_ can either be a _rank_, **or** a _job description._ > > Small ships can be commanded by lower ranks, but the ship’s commander is always referred-to as _Captain_ as a matter of courtesy. Yes I am aware of that. In the end of Star Trek 2009 Kirk was referred to as Captain Kirk while getting his medal at a ceremony that was not on his ship. If he had not had that rank; he would have been referred to by another rank. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/86 "2011-08-17T00:23:06Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > In the century of peace that followed Trafalgar, the common Royal Navy toast was “Bloody war and quick promotion”! It was actually “to sickly seasons and bloody wars!” Century of peace following _Waterloo_ ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/87 "2011-08-17T00:53:46Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > (For instance, in the US Navy, you will rarely see the entire command staff of a ship go ashore with the chief surgeon and a couple Marines, leaving the rest of the crew in the capable hands of some lieutenant.) While with the Enterprise, we never saw the following; Lt. Ambitious: Ok, while all officers above me in rank are on the surface, just for safety’s sake, I want all sensors and weapons systems locked on their position. Now then, Ensign Klutzoid, I want those Phaser buttons sparkling! Break out the glass cleaner and polish that weapons console until it’s gleaming! \ Captain’s Log. Stardate nnnnn.n Captain Ambitious recording. There has been a horrible accident… ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/88 "2011-08-17T02:08:37Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > …Indeed, there isn’t even a United States at any point that there is a Starfleet in the Star Trek setting… Not so: [United States of America | Memory Alpha | Fandom](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/United_States) > [@AK84](#): > > It was actually “to sickly seasons and bloody wars!” > > Century of peace following _Waterloo_ I have heard of the toast as I quoted it. And from the Navy’s perspective, it was a century of virtual peace after Trafalgar. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/89 "2011-08-17T12:45:21Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Yes I am aware of that. In the end of Star Trek 2009 > > Kirk was referred to as Captain Kirk while getting his medal at a ceremony that was not on his ship. If he had not had that rank; he would have been referred to by another rank. Depending on the customs of the organization involved, someone who was captain of a ship might have the right to be addressed as “Captain so-and-so” when off the ship, because he is still Captain of that ship until officially relieved. I still stand fast to my prediction that the next movie will begin with Kirk cooling his heels in the Brig, because he is still a hot head. I also predict that it will be funny when it happens. Incidentally, I won a $10 iTunes gift card today because I remembered that Gene Roddenberry was in the Air Force, though I can’t remember where I learned that. It might have been in this very thread. Presumably when folks were discussing why Starfleet doesn’t function like a real navy. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/90 "2011-08-17T13:09:23Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > As has been pointed out, Starfleet is not the United States military. Indeed, there isn’t even a United States at any point that there is a Starfleet in the Star Trek setting. I don’t care about the U.S. military. Kirk’s promotion would be ludicrous in _any_ nation’s military, unless he was a royal prince or something getting a largely ceremonial rank to a largely ceremonial post. > [@](#): > > So presumably they have their own ways of doing things Maybe in the future they’ve conclusively identified the “talent” gene, so people with this gene routinely get massive promotions to their “rightful” place in society and these people just naturally excel in their “rightful” roles. Or, more likely, the whole “Academy” thing was written by people who have no clue how an actual military works, and who think talent counts for everything and experience and training mean squat, i.e. Kirk isn’t at Starfleet Academy to learn how to be a commanding officer - he already has this in his genes. He’s merely being generous in _tolerating_ (barely) his time at the Academy until he gets his birthright - command of the _Enterprise_. I could accept this in a movie that didn’t take itself as seriously, that admitted it was pure fantasy, but _Star Trek_ (2009) had pretensions of being more gritty and realistic than the original TV series and ended up being far more cartoonish. It’s rather like Brian de Palma’s _Body Double_, which remade Hitchcock’s _Vertigo_ with more nudity, cursing and violence, but by slapping on a happy ending, _he completely missed the point of the original_ and condescended his audience in a way Hitchcock didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/91 "2011-08-17T21:33:11Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I don’t see how this contradicts anything I said. An “up-or-out” policy is not necessary for a meritocracy. Indeed, one might argue that “up-or-out” is anti-meritocratic. My comment wasn’t in response to “up or out”, but to “officers purchasing their commissions”. ---
**Author:** ![Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dread_pirate_jimbo/32/3897_2.png) [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dread_Pirate_Jimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/92 "2011-08-17T22:04:25Z")
After seeing the most recent Star Trek movie, I was kinda disappointed to see Kirk handed the \*Enterprise \*at the end. I think it would have made for a much more realistic and interesting transition for the next sequel to open with Kirk receiving the commission as Captain of the _Enterprise_, having just spent a couple years on the ship as an officer under Pike, or possibly after having served a tour of duty on the _Farragut_, where his whole attitude was coloured and shaped by encountering the blood-sucking space cloud that kills his mentor, Capt. Garrovick. In either event, it sets the story in motion at the opening of the next movie without really taking anything away from what we have at the end of the last movie and just seems to make more sense than having some idiot cadet being handed the keys to the flagship. TNG wasn’t the only show with sketchy promotion issues. After all, the Enterprise-A was populated by two captains, Kirk and Spock. And, come to think of it, I believe Scotty was also a captain at that point – you might think they’d figure out a different distribution of assignments within Starfleet to avoid having three command officers all tramping around together… ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/93 "2011-08-18T02:38:03Z")
^ Thats actually ok. Engineering, sciences and command are different arms. Its not unknown on US Aircraft carriers to have two or even three officers of the rank of Captain onboard; with only one being the ships commanding officer. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/94 "2011-08-18T02:49:45Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > My comment wasn’t in response to “up or out”, but to “officers purchasing their commissions”. That was intended as an example to show that there is very little that is implausible in a fictional quasi-military force when it comes to rank and advancement. It was not meant as an example of something that would fit smoothly into the Star Trek milieu. ---
**Author:** ![antonio107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@antonio107](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antonio107)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/95 "2011-08-18T02:50:21Z")
Worf gets three promotions over TNG and DS9 (I count his ambassador position to Kronos, as well). Geordi becomes Chief Engineer, and gets his own captaincy if you believe the time line variation from VOY. Affirmitive action, anyone? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/96 "2011-08-18T04:05:13Z")
While poor Harry Kim remains an ensign throughout _Voyager_’s entire journey… ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/97 "2011-08-18T04:48:31Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > ^ > Thats actually ok. Engineering, sciences and command are different arms. Its not unknown on US Aircraft carriers to have two or even three officers of the rank of Captain onboard; with only one being the ships commanding officer. Plus Kirk was originally an Admiral, and was only demoted to Captain as a token punishment, as he’d just saved Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/98 "2011-08-18T08:45:09Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > While poor Harry Kim remains an ensign throughout _Voyager_’s entire journey… To add insult to injury, he died several times, didn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/99 "2011-08-18T08:46:59Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Plus Kirk was originally an Admiral, and was only demoted to Captain as a token punishment, as he’d just saved Earth. I also interpreted that as the Federation thumbing their nose at the Klingon Empire, who had demanded a very harsh punishment for the long list of crimes they accused Kirk of after STIII (conveniently ignoring that the Klingons had destroyed the USS Grissom before Kirk even showed up on the scene). ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/100 "2011-08-18T09:29:06Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > To add insult to injury, he died several times, didn’t he? Technically, I think that would be adding injury to insult… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403.md?page=6)