# In ST TNG, is the USS Enterprise the ship where careers go to die? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 5, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403 "2011-06-05T16:55:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/121 "2011-08-19T16:08:55Z")
> [@Unintentionally\_Blank](#): > > Which begs the question: Would a Captain who got their from an engineering path be better or worse than one that got there from Command School or (heaven forbid) the Councilor/Touchy Feely/Psychology path? Sisko was a captain who rose up through Engineering, I think. I’d check Memory Alpha to be sure but I am incredibly lazy and take pride in being so. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/122 "2011-08-19T19:31:22Z")
Sisko was a line officer whose career and interest in the same came to a halt after Wolf 359. Which is why he served in dead end places like Utopia Planitia and letter DS9…ooopps. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/123 "2011-08-19T20:27:33Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Putting the needs of the service before the individual – strict dedication to Starfleet – These are values that we have not seen Roddenberry or canon espouse. I’s pretty obvious that Starfleet is not the same kind of military that we have today and it doesn’t operate with exactly the same kinds of values and goals as our military services do. Continually trying to impose your personal experiences on a fictional entity is going to be endlessly frustrating. Are you kidding? Starfleet certainly expects individuals to put the welfare of the crew above anything else. In Troi’s test for command, she had to learn to order someone to die in order to save the ship. Even though it was holographic Geordie that was sent to his death, it’s quite clear that the real Geordie would be expected to follow such an order. You’re right, Starfleet isn’t the same kind of military we have today. However, having Riker turn down three commands without consequence is just plain silly. Star Trek writers come up with all sorts of silly things though. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/124 "2011-08-19T21:15:00Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Are you kidding? Starfleet certainly expects individuals to put the welfare of the crew above anything else. In Troi’s test for command, she had to learn to order someone to die in order to save the ship. Even though it was holographic Geordie that was sent to his death, it’s quite clear that the real Geordie would be expected to follow such an order. You’re right, Starfleet isn’t the same kind of military we have today. However, having Riker turn down three commands without consequence is just plain silly. Star Trek writers come up with all sorts of silly things though. Your example does not relate directly to the turning down promotion issue. These aren’t the same things. It’s completely plausible to have a military in which a test for command requires you to send an individual to his death and also allows you to turn down an offered promotion. You’re letting your personal values and experience lead you to unnecessary assumptions. There are all kinds of lines that can be drawn in different places without sacrificing plausibility. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/125 "2011-08-19T21:18:41Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Are you kidding? Starfleet certainly expects individuals to put the welfare of the crew above anything else. In Troi’s test for command, she had to learn to order someone to die in order to save the ship. Even though it was holographic Geordie that was sent to his death, it’s quite clear that the real Geordie would be expected to follow such an order. You’re right, Starfleet isn’t the same kind of military we have today. However, having Riker turn down three commands without consequence is just plain silly. Star Trek writers come up with all sorts of silly things though. Well, there WERE consequences to Riker turning down three commands. NOte that he doesn’t get offered command of the Enterprise when Picard is sent on his disastrous mission into Cardassian territory. “Change of Command” or something was the episode; it was a two-parter. Ronny Cox was in it; he played the new captain, whom I loved because he voiced all – well, many – of the reasons I despised Riker and. And though it’s not said outright, I think it was implicit that Riker realized he’d done his career serious damage with that third declining of command. I can’t prove it and won’t try, but I rather think that Starfleet tolerates officers rising to as high as lieutenant commander, or to a job as high as second officer, without trying to advance further. I don’t think Data was under any particular pressure to go further – which was good, because while he clearly was capable of commanding well, it would have seriously interfered with his desire to learn to be more nearly human. He’d not be able to indulge himself thus as a captain – probably not even as a first officer. I wonder if he had a Riker emulator program for times when he had to act as first officer? He clearly had a Picard emulator. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/126 "2011-08-19T21:33:42Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > There are all kinds of lines that can be drawn in different places without sacrificing plausibility. No, there really aren’t. I accept that we are of a different opinion on the subject though. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/127 "2011-08-19T22:10:19Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > No, there really aren’t. If that’s really your position then it seems to me you’re better off avoiding any depiction of a military or quasi-military force that doesn’t entirely take on board your own ideas of what is the right way to run things. And it seems to me a rather astonishing statement to make when faced with an actual human history of societies organizing themselves in a wide variety of ways. ---
**Author:** ![antonio107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@antonio107](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antonio107)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/128 "2011-08-19T22:38:36Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I wouldn’t count Worf’s ambassadorship; that was leaving the Starfleet hierarchy entirely. Iunno, it was still moving up the ranks of the Federation; if you’re a mid ranking soldier in the US Forces (he wasn’t an admiral or captain, after all), and get appointed to, say, a presidential cabinet, or a really high up ambassador position, I’d say you’re doing alright for yourself! Also, if you believe the nerds at Memory Alpha, there’s speculation that for a few moments, Worf was the lawful ruler of the Klingon Empire (lawful in the sense of murdering his predecessor, hahaha), before abdicating in favour of Martok. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/129 "2011-08-19T22:45:16Z")
> [@antonio107](#): > > Iunno, it was still moving up the ranks of the Federation; if you’re a mid ranking soldier in the US Forces (he wasn’t an admiral or captain, after all), and get appointed to, say, a presidential cabinet, or a really high up ambassador position, I’d say you’re doing alright for yourself! He was leaving the hierarchy entirely. When I resigned from Union Planters Bank to take a job that paid more and had more responsibility with UPS, was I getting promoted? No. > [@](#): > > Also, if you believe the nerds at Memory Alpha, there’s speculation that for a few moments, Worf was the lawful ruler of the Klingon Empire (lawful in the sense of murdering his predecessor, hahaha), before abdicating in favour of Martok. I’ll grant that. That is still not a Starfleet promotion. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/130 "2011-08-19T22:51:56Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > If that’s really your position then it seems to me you’re better off avoiding any depiction of a military or quasi-military force that doesn’t entirely take on board your own ideas of what is the right way to run things. Your opinion is appreciated. I will take it under advisement when interpreting works of fiction in the future. ---
**Author:** ![antonio107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@antonio107](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antonio107)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/131 "2011-08-19T22:55:41Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > He was leaving the hierarchy entirely. > > When I resigned from Union Planters Bank to take a job that paid more and had more responsibility with UPS, was I getting promoted? No. > > I’ll grant that. That is still not a Starfleet promotion. Well, it certainly begs the question of how closely tied Starfleet is with the civilian federation government, but you’re right. At any rate, as per the title of the OP, it looks like Worf’s career went through the fucking stratosphere as soon as he got off that floating bathtub! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/132 "2011-08-20T01:33:25Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > “Change of Command” or something was the episode; it was a two-parter. Ronny Cox was in it; he played the new captain, whom I loved because he voiced all – well, many – of the reasons I despised Riker It was “Chain of Command” and I caught a few minutes of part 1 earlier today and was reminded that, yeah, this show could’ve taken a few interesting turns if Ronny Cox’s character had stayed on, shaking things up and whatnot. Frankly, that show could have used a lot more ruthlessness. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/133 "2011-08-20T02:47:35Z")
> [@antonio107](#): > > Also, if you believe the nerds at Memory Alpha, there’s speculation that for a few moments, Worf was the lawful ruler of the Klingon Empire (lawful in the sense of murdering his predecessor, hahaha), before abdicating in favour of Martok. Nitpick, Worf did not murder Gowron, he killed him in a duel according to the laws and customs of the Klingon Empire. It might have been considered murder if it happened in the Federation, but they weren’t in Kansas anymore when that happened. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/134 "2011-08-20T03:01:59Z")
He also immediately… Turned down the promotion. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/135 "2011-08-20T03:21:04Z")
I’m starting to think that this might be _Picard’s_ fault! Does anyone on that ship ever accept promotion? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Khan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3ab097/32.png) [@Khan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/136 "2011-08-20T03:58:58Z")
> [@Bakhesh](#): > > I think there are books covering the Ent-E’s involvement in the Dominion War. It just never made it on screen For better or worse, the books aren’t “officially” canon. However, there’s plenty of on-screen evidence that the Enterprise-E was around during the Dominion War. During “In Purgatory’s Shadow/By Inferno’s Light,” Sisko mentions “the recent Borg attack,” in reference to First Contact. In the beginning of Insurrection, Picard is frustrated that the Enterprise is on a diplomatic mission instead of helping with the war. Later on they find out that the Son’a are helping the Dominion manufacture Ketracel White. ---
**Author:** ![antonio107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@antonio107](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antonio107)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/137 "2011-08-20T04:20:02Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Nitpick, Worf did not murder Gowron, he killed him in a duel according to the laws and customs of the Klingon Empire. It might have been considered murder if it happened in the Federation, but they weren’t in Kansas anymore when that happened. Dayyyyum, I just got nerd burned! Well played, sir. Well played. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/138 "2011-08-20T04:59:50Z")
> [@antonio107](#): > > Dayyyyum, I just got nerd burned! > > Well played, sir. Well played. ☹ _adjusting coke bottle glasses_ Damn straight. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2011, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/139 "2011-08-20T13:22:44Z")
So what did the Enterprise do in said Dominion War? Picard was a damn sight better tactician then Sisko. I cannot imagine he would have been kept away from the action. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2011, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/140 "2011-08-20T13:26:56Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > So what did the Enterprise do in said Dominion War? Picard was a damn sight better tactician then Sisko. I cannot imagine he would have been kept away from the action. Wasn’t he off in the Briar Patch, exploring the Fountain of MILF? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403.md?page=8)