# In ST TNG, is the USS Enterprise the ship where careers go to die? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 5, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403 "2011-06-05T16:55:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/161 "2011-08-22T04:10:56Z")
> [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](#): > > [The Drumhead](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Drumhead) SFDebris review of The Drumhead: [http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated-reviews/tng-the-drumhead-review-5429239](http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated-reviews/tng-the-drumhead-review-5429239) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/162 "2011-08-22T16:47:41Z")
Crewman First Class Simon Tarses is the medical technician who’s the subject of the inquiry in “The Drumhead.” In the non-canon ST books, he later goes to medical school, becomes a doctor, is assigned to DS9 under Dr. Bashir, and eventually becomes Capt. Ezri Dax’s CMO aboard the USS _Aventine_: [Simon Tarses | Memory Alpha | Fandom](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Simon_Tarses) ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/163 "2011-08-22T16:59:04Z")
> [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](#): > > SFDebris review of The Drumhead: > [http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated-reviews/tng-the-drumhead-review-5429239](http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated-reviews/tng-the-drumhead-review-5429239) That thing is 15 minutes long when the original episodes is 42-44 minutes long. That’s not a review, that’s a summary. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/164 "2011-08-22T17:18:21Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > Didn’t Troi get a promotion in one episode when she made a holodeck decision to order Geordi to his death to save the ship? If she’d killed Wesley instead, they would have made her an admiral. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/165 "2011-08-22T18:03:27Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Clearly. And in DS9, it seems that everybody who works in engineering in enlisted, which is clearly not the case in TNG. O’Brien takes Worf to task for riding the engineering crew the way he does the bridge staff; the engineers, he says, did not go to Starfleet Academy and don’t have the same skill set. DS9 also had the added wrinkle in that half the Engineering staff and half the Security staff were not Starfleet at all and were Bajoran civilians (and a Ferengi). ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/166 "2011-08-22T18:39:19Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > DS9 also had the added wrinkle in that half the Engineering staff and half the Security staff were not Starfleet at all and were Bajoran civilians (and a Ferengi). This is also the case. And of course, if they’d written O’Brien as an officer – which would have been problematic for several reasons – they’d probably have had the Engineering staff be ensigns & lieutenants as well, as on TNG. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/167 "2011-08-22T21:40:25Z")
Comparing and contrasting Picard’s and Jellicoe’s “style” of command is interesting. Both were ultimately successful in carrying out difficult missions, but I’m sure most of us would rather serve under Picard than being subject to Jellicoe’s more… brusk… style. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/168 "2011-08-22T21:48:48Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > brusk… style. 🙂 Nitpick: brusque ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/169 "2011-08-22T22:30:03Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Spock was captain of the _Enterprise_ in Star Trek II, when it was a training vessel. He handed command over to Admiral Kirk, despite Kirk’s (someone weak) arguments otherwise. Right. He was captain of the training vessel, with a crew of (a) cadets learning how to be officers, and (b) old officers who are training them. He hands over command immediately for 2 reasons. First, as I said, the events preceding/in TMP change his perspective, and he really doesn’t desire personal command by STII. Second, he has friggin’ Admiral Kirk along, and he’s much more comfortable personally being Kirk’s Right Hand rather than the guy on the spot. > [@](#): > > In WoK Chekov was a commander aboard the _Reliant_, you’re thinking of Saavik and David Marcus, who were both aboard the _Grissom._ Minor nitpick, but then those are the most important nitpicks, yes? 😃 Crap. [Ed McMahon] You are correct. [/Ed McMahon] > [@AK84](#): > > Niether McCoy, Uhura nor Scotty could ever realistically hope to get the command of a Starship. OKay, maybe Scotty could, but Engineering has been a specialised discipline for many years now and even today Engineers rarely get command. I agree that McCoy was in a not command line, but I don’t see the other two. What about Uhura’s job in communications prevents her from eventually getting the opportunity to command? Typically officers are given a variety of assignments as they come up through the ranks, in order to broaden their experience base. Sure, operating hailing frequencies is pretty trivial, but there’s nothing in TOS to indicate that her role is just “operator” and every reason to believe, as a Starfleet Officer, she’s filling one role on the bridge as a lieutenant as part of a broad career. Nothing specific to Communications as opposed to Helm (being a pilot) or Astrogator (star navigator) screams “not command worthy”. And Scotty actually sits on the bridge in command when Kirk and Spock are off chasing tail and creating messes. Why could he do that if he wasn’t at least nominally in the command line? Sure, his personal predisposition would be better suited as an engineering specialist, but that hardly means that during the TOS days he was precluded from command by his choice of discipline. > [@BigT](#): > > And Shelby was either lying or somehow speaking figuratively, as she makes Captain before the end of the series. You’re right, it would be stupid if an officer was allowed to stay in his post and keep other people from advancing. Fortunately, Starfleet doesn’t seem to do this. To some degree, she was spot on. Riker was First Officer on Enterprise. Being First Officer somewhere is a stepping stone to command, you shouldn’t be able to reach Captain without it\*. And there are only so many vessels, even for Starfleet, and there’s only one Flagship\*\*. So in a very real sense, Riker should get a few years as Enterprise’s First Officer, then go off with his own command where he (a) _serves_ the needs of Starfleet by being the best officer he can, and (b) opens a slot for a junior officer who needs the opportunity in order to advance. Now if Starfleet is Officer heavy and ship light (way more officers than commands available), then bottlenecking is the price everyone pays (see previously referenced pre-Napoleanic Britain). But if SF has ships and needs people, then leaving one guy at Commander for 15 years seems… ill thought out. > [@](#): > > BTW Geordi was an engineer, and got command of a ship. (Surely Voyager coming back didn’t change that) Then again, he also had a bunch of other roles before being an engineer, so maybe he drew on that. Yes, I think Geordi was more representative than Scotty. Scotty was happier with the engines, so didn’t push his career to the command side, instead pursued a technical track. Geordi worked several roles, with Engineering just being one, and eventually progressed to command. > [@Unintentionally\_Blank](#): > > Which begs the question: Would a Captain who got their from an engineering path be better or worse than one that got there from Command School or (heaven forbid) the Councilor/Touchy Feely/Psychology path? Well, you’re assuming that Command School is somehow different than the other paths. But yes, I would think someone whose primary responsibilities and experience was psychology and counseling would have a different perspective than one who came through engineering, or one who came through ships operations/helm/security. Although ideally any officer considered for command is going to be given a solid grounding in all the necessary fields. But different experiences are going to combine with different innate personalities to give different command styles. > [@Acsenray](#): > > This is very true. There’s no reason why there has to be a distinction between enlisted, NCOs, commissioned officers, etc. Roddenberry’s original idea that ensign is the lowest rank on a starship is 100 percent plausible. As pointed out, enlisted personnel have different responsibilities and roles than officers. And each rank within has its own roles and responsibilities. * * * - In any sane navy. Barring exigent circumstances, like that time that a Midshipman on first cruise finds himself the sole surviving officer on a Ship of the Line in the middle of an engagement, and has to take over command because he is the only one available. (I read about it in a novel somewhere. Probably Honor Harrington.) Or that person is Kirk, and he saves the universe as a cadet on suspension, and a time/spacewarp traveling old coot shows up and declares that he will be the best thing since sliced bread and so he should be made Captain immediately, and save everyone the trouble of training him. \*\* Enterprise is declared the Flagship, but never actually serves as one. She never hosts an Admiral as the leader of a fleet. She cruises about on her own most of the time. They may have been using flagship in the sense of _bestest most impressive ever_. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/170 "2011-08-22T22:34:16Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > As pointed out, enlisted personnel have different responsibilities and roles than officers. And each rank within has its own roles and responsibilities. In _our_ world, it does. There’s nothing necessary or essential about the distinction. It’s not a law of nature and there’s no reason why the creators of a fictional future should necessarily be bound by it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/171 "2011-08-22T22:40:12Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Barring exigent circumstances, like that time that a Midshipman on first cruise finds himself the sole surviving officer on a Ship of the Line in the middle of an engagement, and has to take over command because he is the only one available. (I read about it in a novel somewhere. Probably Honor Harrington.) Possibly it is, but the real-life William Sitgreaves Cox was referenced in _Starship Troopers_: ``` "Very well. It was one of those bush wars that hared up on the edges of the Napoleonic wars. This young officer was the most junior in a naval vessel -- wet navy, of course -- wind-powered, in fact. This youngster was about the age of most of your class and was not commissioned. He carried the title of temporary third lieutenant' -- note that this is the title you are about to carry. He had no combat experience; there were four officers in the chain of command above him. When the battle started his commanding officer was wounded. The kid picked him up and carried him out of the line of fire. That's all -- make pickup on a comrade. But he did it without being ordered to leave his post. The other officers all bought it while he was doing this and he was tried for `deserting his post of duty as commanding officer in the presence of the enemy.' Convicted. Cashiered." I gasped. "For that? Sir." "Why not? True, we make pickup. But we do it under different circumstances from a wet-navy battle, and by orders to the man making pickup. But pickup is never an excuse for breaking off battle in the presence of the enemy. This boy's family tried for a century and a half to get his conviction reversed. No luck, of course. There was doubt about some circumstances but no doubt that he had left his post during battle without orders. True, he was green as grass -- but he was lucky not to be hanged." ``` ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/172 "2011-08-22T22:54:27Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Comparing and contrasting Picard’s and Jellicoe’s “style” of command is interesting. > > Both were ultimately successful in carrying out difficult missions, but I’m sure most of us would rather serve under Picard than being subject to Jellicoe’s more… brusk… style. 🙂 I’m not sure that’s true. I think Jellicoe came off badly (if he did) because of his conflict with the presumably sympathetic Riker. The thing is, Jellicoe was RIGHT about every damn thing he and Riker argued about. Riker’s problem was that he had gotten so used to being Picard’s right arm that he forgot he had to earn Jellicoe’s trust. If he’d had the self-discipline and professionalism to put the new captain’s orders into effect – you know, to _do his goddamn job_ – there’d have been no arguing; and he was doomed to lose any argument that came up anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/173 "2011-08-23T01:07:53Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Comparing and contrasting Picard’s and Jellicoe’s “style” of command is interesting… Further nitpick - it’s “Jellico”: [Edward Jellico | Memory Alpha | Fandom](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Edward_Jellico) > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Possibly it is, but the real-life William Sitgreaves Cox was referenced in _Starship Troopers_… We had an interesting discussion about that a few years ago: [Why did Heinlein report incorrectly about Cox in Starship Troopers? - Cafe Society - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=446041) ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/174 "2011-08-23T10:59:59Z")
Just a thought, but in the TNG universe, what has medical science done with regard to longevity? Aside from Deforrest Kelly turning up in the first episode, I can’t remember much reference to it, but surely this is a factor. At the moment, people can have at most 40-odd years in the military, but if there have been significant improvements in lifespan, which considering medical science today seems likely, then a star fleet career may last much longer. If so, then it seems much more plausible that someone will gladly stay at the same rank for a much longer period. Otherwise, you are quickly going to end up with a surplus of Admirals. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/175 "2011-08-23T14:33:57Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Nitpick: brusque :smack: thanks ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/176 "2011-08-23T14:41:08Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m not sure that’s true. I think Jellicoe came off badly (if he did) because of his conflict with the presumably sympathetic Riker. The thing is, Jellicoe was RIGHT about every damn thing he and Riker argued about. Riker’s problem was that he had gotten so used to being Picard’s right arm that he forgot he had to earn Jellicoe’s trust. If he’d had the self-discipline and professionalism to put the new captain’s orders into effect – you know, to _do his goddamn job_ – there’d have been no arguing; and he was doomed to lose any argument that came up anyway. The thing is, I always imagined that the writers believed that the long time viewers would be sympathetic to Riker, and hostile to Jellico for not “listening” to the long time main characters’ opinions. I agree that in a organisation with rigid rank and discipline system, Jellico is right in a lot of his arguments. But it seems to me that a lot of people with non-military experience are going to think that Jellico doesn’t need to be such a dick about it all. ---
**Author:** ![carlb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carlb/32/5930_2.png) [@carlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlb)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/177 "2011-08-23T15:16:16Z")
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] I’m not sure that’s true. I think Jellico came off badly (if he did) because of his conflict with the presumably sympathetic Riker. The thing is, Jellico was RIGHT about every damn thing he and Riker argued about. Riker’s problem was that he had gotten so used to being Picard’s right arm that he forgot he had to earn Jellico’s trust. If he’d had the self-discipline and professionalism to put the new captain’s orders into effect – you know, to do his goddamn job – there’d have been no arguing; and he was doomed to lose any argument that came up anyway. [/QUOTE] > [@mlees](#): > > The thing is, I always imagined that the writers believed that the long time viewers would be sympathetic to Riker, and hostile to Jellico for not “listening” to the long time main characters’ opinions. > > I agree that in a organisation with rigid rank and discipline system, Jellico is right in a lot of his arguments. But it seems to me that a lot of people with non-military experience are going to think that Jellico doesn’t need to be such a dick about it all. Ron Moore wrote the episode _Chain of Command_. I think it’s interesting that he set up an almost identical situation in BSG, when _Pegasus_ and Admiral Cain arrive on scene. In the end Cain proved to be much less sympathetic than Jellico, but the essential conflicts, both between the characters and between the new character and the viewers’ sympathies, are the same. When Cain criticizes Adama’s leadership style and lack of military discipline, _ **she’s right** _. In many ways, Adama was not doing the fleet any service by letting these things lapse. But, since we’ve been on the ride with Adama and his crew and felt their pain and shared their triumphs, as viewers our knee-jerk reaction is to think, “that bitch!” It’s clearly a subject Moore has put some thought toward and wanted to explore in more depth. As for Riker, I always thought he was being rather arrogant. It wasn’t that he didn’t want a command; he didn’t want a command _that wasn’t Enterprise_. Sorry, Will, that’s not the way it works. I don’t care how good an XO you may be, your first command isn’t going to be one of the premier slots in Starfleet. You’re going to have to cut your teeth on a smaller, less glorious command to prove to the Admiralty that you’ve got what it takes to sit in the big chair. A command like _Enterprise_ is the last ship command you have before getting promoted to Admiral. It’s not something you hand over to someone who just got their fourth pip. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/178 "2011-08-23T15:54:02Z")
Riker said he stuck around on the _Enterprise_-D because of his admiration for Picard, and because he thought he still had more to learn. But he also wondered, in “Best of Both Worlds,” if perhaps he had become complacent. ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/179 "2011-08-23T16:08:31Z")
> [@carlb](#): > > Ron Moore wrote the episode _Chain of Command_. I think it’s interesting that he set up an almost identical situation in BSG, when _Pegasus_ and Admiral Cain arrive on scene. In the end Cain proved to be much less sympathetic than Jellico, but the essential conflicts, both between the characters and between the new character and the viewers’ sympathies, are the same. When Cain criticizes Adama’s leadership style and lack of military discipline, _ **she’s right** _. In many ways, Adama was not doing the fleet any service by letting these things lapse. But, since we’ve been on the ride with Adama and his crew and felt their pain and shared their triumphs, as viewers our knee-jerk reaction is to think, “that bitch!” It’s clearly a subject Moore has put some thought toward and wanted to explore in more depth. If you want to see galactica do ‘The Drumhead’, you need to watch ‘Litmus’; A Ron Moore episode that is almost identical to the Drumhead, but happened way back in season 1, well before the Pegasus turned up. Also, I don’t agree that Cain was right. She was on a completely different mission to Adama. Cain’s mission, as she saw it, was that the 12 colonies were gone forever, and it was up to her to get revenge. She had no interest in anything after that. Adama’s mission was to preserve what was left of humanity, and find them a new home to rebuild. At the very least, she was wrong because she refused to acknowledge the perfectly legitimate civilian government that Galactica had in place, so had in effect become a military dictator. At the other end of the spectrum, I think its hard to agree with someone who uses rape as a weapon because their last relationship ended badly. ---
**Author:** ![carlb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carlb/32/5930_2.png) [@carlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlb)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403/180 "2011-08-23T16:41:53Z")
> [@Bakhesh](#): > > If you want to see galactica do ‘The Drumhead’, you need to watch ‘Litmus’; A Ron Moore episode that is almost identical to the Drumhead, but happened way back in season 1, well before the Pegasus turned up. > > Also, I don’t agree that Cain was right. She was on a completely different mission to Adama. Cain’s mission, as she saw it, was that the 12 colonies were gone forever, and it was up to her to get revenge. She had no interest in anything after that. Adama’s mission was to preserve what was left of humanity, and find them a new home to rebuild. > > At the very least, she was wrong because she refused to acknowledge the perfectly legitimate civilian government that Galactica had in place, so had in effect become a military dictator. At the other end of the spectrum, I think its hard to agree with someone who uses rape as a weapon because their last relationship ended badly. Well, like I said, Cain was ultimately a _much_ less sympathetic character than Jellico. I guess I was reflecting more on my initial reaction to her. When she first steps off her shuttle and begins asserting authority, our (or at least, I assume, most viewers’) reaction was fairly negative. But, note that initially Adama didn’t really have a problem with her - she was his commanding officer, and she had every right and duty to assume command. Their stylistic differences weren’t really a problem for Adama until it became clear that there was something severely wrong with _Pegasus_, and I think Moore was trying to get us all to lay aside our preferences or expectations for a bit, and to really examine and think about the balance that should ideally be struck between an appropriate level of discipline and a human touch when commanding an organization. You’re absolutely right that she turned out to be a monster, but in the initial interactions with Galactica, her crew, and her commander, she was not at all wrong to assert her authority and insist on a higher level of discipline, just as Adama was not really _wrong_ to have a looser set of rules for his command, but until he learned otherwise, he and his crew had a duty to follow their Admiral’s orders. Just because they were more rigid than the way Adama had been running things was not a good reason to be insubordinate. I could discuss the BSG scenario for longer than is probably warranted in this thread. The civilian government and Adama both screwed up a lot early on, and they paid for it down the road. Obviously Cain wasn’t privy (at least initially) to the circumstances that led to these decisions, and a reasonable Admiral would probably not have been so heavy-handed right off the bat. It doesn’t make her entirely wrong, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-st-tng-is-the-uss-enterprise-the-ship-where-careers-go-to-die/584403.md?page=10)