# in-state tuition for illegal immigrants? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2003, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924 "2003-05-22T23:17:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924/21 "2003-05-23T13:45:28Z")
I can see where there could be a social benefit to providing subsidized higher education for illegal immigrants, but it sticks in my craw to see the government rewarding criminals. What most amazes me is that this bill could ever pass. It seems like a political loser. Illegal immigrants can’t vote. I would think most voters would resent having their taxes used for this purpose. Why did legislators and governors support this law? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924/22 "2003-05-23T13:46:27Z")
Sailor: You forgot one word in your first sentence. Put the word “legal” in front of the word “resident” and the conundrum is resolved. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924/23 "2003-05-23T13:59:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*Sailor: > > You forgot one word in your first sentence. Put the word “legal” in front of the word “resident” and the conundrum is resolved. \*\* Why? Why should I do that? If the reasoning for granting lower tuition is because residents pay taxes there and illegals also pay taxes I just cannot see the reason. Can you explain it to me? ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924/24 "2003-05-23T14:06:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\* > > I have a friend who’s very poor. He couldn’t afford go to college so his parents stole some money so that he would be able to. They stole it from a very rich person who will never miss it. My firend has a 4.0 average in college right now. But the police just discovered that his parents stole the money, and they want him to give it back. If that happens, my friend will have to drop out of college. Should we bend the law and let my friend keep the money? > > \*\* Maybe I’m stupid but I thought they are **paying** in-state tuition. How can you equate paying to stealing? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\* > > You are advocating an open boarder policy for your friend. > > \*\* Who mentioned free room and board??? So John, run out all the illegals. Send them all back. But whether you realize it or not, there is almost no food in the U.S. that has not at some point in the process been produced by undocumented workers, virtually nada. So unless you are willing and able to pay at _least_ twice as much for groceries every week, it may be best you let them stay. Probably a whole lot cheaper letting them **pay** in-state tuition, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924/25 "2003-05-23T14:08:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*I can see where there could be a social benefit to providing subsidized higher education for illegal immigrants, but it sticks in my craw to see the government rewarding criminals. > > What most amazes me is that this bill could ever pass. It seems like a political loser. Illegal immigrants can’t vote. I would think most voters would resent having their taxes used for this purpose. Why did legislators and governors support this law? \*\* The bill is a political winner because illegal immigrants frequently have relatives, friends, and co-orkers who are legal immigrants who are U.S. citizens or legal residents. Also, many legal immigrants or U.S. citizens were once illegal immigrants (or undocumented migrants, or whatever you want to call them). My college roommate was a prime example: her parents crossed the border illegally from El Salvador when she was a small child, leaving her and her younger brother in El Salvador in the care of their grandmother. Eight years later, once the parents legalized through a now-sunset program that allowed parents of U.S. citizens to legalize (they had 2 more kids after they arrived in the U.S.), they had the 2 oldest come from El Salvador to join them, legally. All eventually became U.S, citizens, graduated from high school with honors and from competitive universities (and two of them also from grad schools), and are contributing members of society. IME this is a fairly typical story. I still haven’t made up my own mind where the U.S. should draw the line. It’s a difficult issue, and some people will lose out no matter how it is resolved. I just think it’s tragic to penalize kids for the actions of their parents. If you deport them once they graduate high school, by that point they won’t be functional members of the societies they were born in, either, due to their long absence. Some don’t even speak the language, and most haven’t been educated in the language. Some of the spoken/written Spanish around here makes me cringe, and I’m not even a native speaker. ---
**Author:** ![pencilpusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d6d6ee/32.png) [@pencilpusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pencilpusher)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924/26 "2003-05-23T14:27:45Z")
I think what John was saying is basically the same thing I am. I don’t care if they pick berries or make vibrators for a living. They NEED to get green cards, work visas, whatever BEFORE they come into this country illegally. I don’t care if there are people coming into the US for education but we shouldn’t make it a perk for the ILLEGAL personage. People that commit crimes while US citizens are different than persons that walk across the border KNOWINGLY breaking the law. As for the children brought here by their parents. They should be made to get education visas if they are going to be getting an education past elementary school. Or I guess my American born and raised sons should just give up their dreams of college because of the expense while Paco gets a PHD for free and goes back to Mexico City. Hmm ok thats fine. We don’t need any more Drs here anyway :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924/27 "2003-05-23T14:46:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pencilpusher \* > \*\* I don’t care if there are people coming into the US for education but we shouldn’t make it a perk for the ILLEGAL personage. > > As for the children brought here by their parents. They should be made to get education visas if they are going to be getting an education past elementary school. Or I guess my American born and raised sons should just give up their dreams of college because of the expense while Paco gets a PHD for free and goes back to Mexico City. Hmm ok thats fine. We don’t need any more Drs here anyway :dubious: \*\* PP, Please show me where anyone has mentioned giving these people a **free** education. And can you also prove that by allowing illegal aliens to **pay** for college keeps an American citizen from enrolling? That’s absurd. For those that argue that this will become an incentive for people to come to the US, as far as Mexico goes, most people here really have little comprehension of the US higher education system. Since college here is basically free, issues such as in-state or out of state tuition don’t really apply. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924/28 "2003-05-23T15:09:41Z")
\>\> but we shouldn’t make it a perk for the ILLEGAL personage You just don’t get it do you? If lower tuition is a consequence of paying taxes then what are they getting for free? Suppose an Illegal immigrant pays for a can of soda. Can the soda now be denied because he is here illegally? Is giving him the soda he has paid for a “perk”? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924/29 "2003-05-23T15:17:48Z")
Oh, and those who believe on principle that illegal immigrants should not be entitled to any services, would they also exempt them from paying any taxes? I mean if you want to be consistent it only makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924/30 "2003-05-23T15:35:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CBEscapee \* > So unless you are willing and able to pay at _least_ twice as much for groceries every week, it may be best you let them stay. Probably a whole lot cheaper letting them **pay** in-state tuition, don’t you think? I **am** willing to pay twice as much for groceries. Hey, I have nothing against illegal aliens other than that they have broken the law. I’m sure the vast majority are good, largely honest people trying to better their lives. I’m sure they are doing jobs that most Americans would not do. I’m not a heartless person who grins when I hear of illegals dying when they try to cross a dangerous area. But that does not change the fact that they have broken the law. If you want them to come here, change the law to allow them to do so. Advocating that the laws be broken is not the way to go. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924/31 "2003-05-23T15:44:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*Why? Why should I do that? If the reasoning for granting lower tuition is because residents pay taxes there and illegals also pay taxes I just cannot see the reason. Can you explain it to me? \*\* We are talking about people who are known to be here illegally. In that case the only action it is reasonable to take is to deport them and allow them to applly for entry like every other person in the world. Granting lower tuition is moot. Once they enter the country legally, they will be elligible for all benefits, including lower tuition for state residents. It’s like saying someone who robs a bank, but has paid taxes, should be allowed to go to college instead of being put in jail. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924/32 "2003-05-23T15:45:20Z")
So anyone who has broken the law should not qualify for lower tuition? Or why only immigration laws? ---
**Author:** ![desdinova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@desdinova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/desdinova)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924/33 "2003-05-23T15:47:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CBEscapee \* > \*\*Please show me where anyone has mentioned giving these people a **free** education. \*\* Playing the devil’s advocate here, I’d like to point out that in-state tuition rates are well below the actual cost of the education, and heavily subsidized by the state government. Typically, out of state tuition is also below the actual cost, but significantly less so. The idea, I believe, is that although the education is not completely free, it’s _partially_ free, like getting a reduced lunch price at a public school as opposed to a free one. **sailor** , we apparently already decided that illegal immigrants don’t pay taxes as it is. Except for the ones that they do pay… but those don’t count 😛 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924/34 "2003-05-23T15:48:05Z")
It’s moot. Illegal aliens should be deported, or in jail. You cannot attend a state college from jail or from a foreign country. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924/35 "2003-05-23T15:52:48Z")
The state should also not accept taxes from illegal aliens then. illegal aliens should be exempt from taxes and ineligible for government services. I think they might kind of like that _\__ ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924/36 "2003-05-23T15:52:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*Oh, and those who believe on principle that illegal immigrants should not be entitled to any services, would they also exempt them from paying any taxes? I mean if you want to be consistent it only makes sense. \*\* I agree. But, most of all, they should be exempt from living here. When someone is identified as having illegally immigrated, he should be punished for his crime. At the very least, he should be immediately deported. Giving various forms of legal status to illegal immigrants blurs the meaning of “illegal.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924/37 "2003-05-23T16:00:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*The state should also not accept taxes from illegal aliens then. illegal aliens should be exempt from taxes and ineligible for government services. I think they might kind of like that _\__ \*\* I think you’re right. I think most illegals would sign up for that program in a heartbeat if they could. Perhaps that could be used as a sting operation to identify illegals.🙂 People advocating lower tuition for illegals act like crossing the border illegally is akin to getting a parking ticket. Pay your fine and then go about your business. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924/38 "2003-05-23T16:10:56Z")
Well, actually it kind of is. Illegal immigration is a procedural offense, not a criminal one. It is more akin to a parking ticket than a speeding ticket. Anyway, these cases are usually about people just reaching adulthood who _have aquired the proper documents_, but did not have them for their entire time in a given state. In-state-tuition require X amount of years residentcy. The question is do we count the time in the state that the kid spent without documents or not? I say we do, because the kid was undoubtably a resident of said state and is likely to continue to be a resident of that state in the future. The education then would not be going to waste on someone that is just going to take it and run. It would serve no purpose whatsoever to deny access to an education to these kids in the same way that it makes sense not to allow truely out-of-state kids get in state tuition. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924/39 "2003-05-23T16:15:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*I **am** willing to pay twice as much for groceries. > > \*\* You may be willing but there are _millions_ of Americans that flat out couldn’t afford it. Do you actually realize the impact the deportation of all illegals would have on the US economy? It would be devasting, the WTC impact would pale in comparison. And I agree that there should be changes to the immigration laws. Mexico has wanted to work out some type of fair agreement for years. It is the USA that keeps putting it off. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924/40 "2003-05-23T16:25:01Z")
> [@](#): > > A bill pending in the Oregon Legislature would allow illegal immigrants to pay in-state tuition as long as they graduate from an Oregon high school, have lived at least three consecutive years in the state and show they are **in the process of getting legal residency.** Here’s the relevant part of the article that relates to what Even Sven just posted. My empahsis is added. If they are “in the process of getting legal residency” one must assume that they have somehow passsed muster with the INS (or whatever it has morphed into under Tom Ridge) and are, therefore, no longer “illegal”. If that is the case I have no problem with this. I’d have to get a better idea of what they mean by “in the process”. That sounds a bit fishy to me. I still stick by everything said earlier wrt to someone who is illegally in the country. As for the statement that crossing the border illegally is like getting a speeding ticket, I don’t think the border protrol just issues tickets to people caught illegally crossing the border and then lets them go. Pls correct me if I’m wrong on that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-state-tuition-for-illegal-immigrants/176924.md?page=3)