# In Texas you can shoot a prostitute for $150 **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 7, 2013, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365 "2013-06-07T08:44:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365/161 "2013-06-09T12:52:44Z")
I’ve scanned the thread and cannot find a valid explanation for the ‘night-time’ loophole, at least applicable to this case. Victim is more at risk at night-time? No, the alleged thief was fleeing. Victim must shoot thief since he can’t identify her face? No, he’d just spent 20 minutes chatting with her indoors. With the same facts, but in daylight, would the jury have convicted? And is this why Texas escorts charge higher rates for night-time services? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365/162 "2013-06-09T13:50:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not at all. > > But you craft confident, brook-no-room-for-error declarations like: > > And that certainly suggests some… well… certainty about the matter. > > I am a lawyer. But since I don’t know Texas law apart from specific stuff I just looked up, I say things like this: > > At common law, the test was whether the face of a human being could be distinguished by natural light. If it got too dark to recognize someone’s facial features, it was nighttime at common law. _Stuff I know for sure, stated without qualifier._ > > I don’t know to what extent, if any, Texas has adopted common-law definitions for that word._Stuff I don’t know and therefore highlight that lack of certainty to avoid giving the impression that I do._ > > Obviously, you should continue to post in whatever manner pleases you. Gee, Bricker, I wonder why the DAs even bothered to bring the man to trial, given how clear things are. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365/163 "2013-06-09T18:41:26Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Gee, Bricker, I wonder why the DAs even bothered to bring the man to trial, given how clear things are. Two reasons spring to mind, one optimistic one pessimistic. Optimistic - they believed the jury would agree the money was exchanged as payment for services(20 minutes of hanging out in his apartment doing something other than sex) and therefore the money wasn’t his and the defense of protecting his property wasn’t applicable. If this finding of fact is reversed then the verdict almost certainly is as well. Then he’s committing assault with a deadly weapon out of revenge for **feeling** ripped off, which is not a valid defense against the charge. Pessimistic - it was a high profile case and they were thinking in terms of re-election because in Texas most District Attorneys, including Bexar county(the one in question), are elected. If they don’t at least TRY to put their own version of the Craigslist Prostitute Killer on trial then they have given ammo to their opponent in the next election. The reality was probably some of both. Maybe even some other stuff that I didn’t think of. I wasn’t there and I’m not privy to the mental processes of the people who made the decision to charge the defendant. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365/164 "2013-06-09T19:23:24Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > The reality was probably some of both. Maybe even some other stuff that I didn’t think of. I wasn’t there and I’m not privy to the mental processes of the people who made the decision to charge the defendant. As you quoted earlier, the defense of property following a theft in the nighttime is provided as a “justification.” That means it’s a question for the jury to decide. So if the DA’s office believed that the facts were as they’ve been described here, it would be appropriate to charge and let the jury decide whether those facts amounted to a defense under the law, I guess. And what a terrible law it is. It’s harsher than fucking _[Exodus,](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+22&version=NIV)_ for crying out loud; even God said it’s gotta be a burglary before you can shoot to kill. It is interesting that this particular day/night distinction, as far as I can tell, only exists in those two contexts - modern day Texas and the Old Testament. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365/165 "2013-06-09T20:08:14Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > As you quoted earlier, the defense of property following a theft in the nighttime is provided as a “justification.” That means it’s a question for the jury to decide. So if the DA’s office believed that the facts were as they’ve been described here, it would be appropriate to charge and let the jury decide whether those facts amounted to a defense under the law, I guess. > > And what a terrible law it is. It’s harsher than fucking _[Exodus,](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+22&version=NIV)_ for crying out loud; even God said it’s gotta be a burglary before you can shoot to kill. It is interesting that this particular day/night distinction, as far as I can tell, only exists in those two contexts - modern day Texas and the Old Testament. So it’s o.k. to shoot a prostitute who hasn’t given you what you think you are due, and apparently it’s o.k. to shoot someone you _think_ is a prostitute for the same reason. What if you think that the nude dancer you just gave 20 bucks to owes you something for it-I mean, we all know what they _really_ are, don’t we? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365/166 "2013-06-09T20:20:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That’s kind of my point. If the money was legally non-recoverable, then didn’t it legally belong to the woman? The man gave the woman money (with intent). She was not legally obligated to do anything in return because you can’t be legally obligated to perform an illegal act. So the money, from a legal point of view, was a gift. Not true. It would be a failed attempt at creating a contract, but certainly not a gift. The man would simply have no remedy at law or equity to recover his money because of his own illegal conduct, but that doesn’t mean that the money was a gift. As I posted above, a gift requires two things: 1) an intent to give the gift, and 2) completed delivery of the gift. He intended to give the money, but not as a gift, so it isn’t a gift. You seem to be hung up on the fact that it was an illegal transaction and therefore not theft. If I break into your house with the intent and for the express purpose of stealing a kilo of cocaine sitting on your coffee table, I do so, and am later charged with burglary, I can’t argue that I didn’t really steal your property because it was illegal and therefore not your property. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365/167 "2013-06-09T20:28:40Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > You seem to be hung up on the fact that it was an illegal transaction and therefore not theft. If I break into your house with the intent and for the express purpose of stealing a kilo of cocaine sitting on your coffee table, I do so, and am later charged with burglary, I can’t argue that I didn’t really steal your property because it was illegal and therefore not your property. And the original owner would get charged, too-which doesn’t seem to be the case with our john. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365/168 "2013-06-09T20:32:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And the original owner would get charged, too-which doesn’t seem to be the case with our john. He was charged with homicide. You mean he wasn’t charged with soliciting prostitution? Well, he certainly could have been, but prosecutors generally don’t throw the book at someone, but only charge them with the most serious offense. Life in prison PLUS a $100 fine seems like overkill. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365/169 "2013-06-09T20:39:26Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > He was charged with homicide. You mean he wasn’t charged with soliciting prostitution? Well, he certainly could have been, but prosecutors generally don’t throw the book at someone, but only charge them with the most serious offense. Life in prison PLUS a $100 fine seems like overkill. Prosecutors don’t load up on the charges in attempt to remove any chance of the jury sympathizing with the defendant? Since when? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365/170 "2013-06-09T21:01:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Prosecutors don’t load up on the charges in attempt to remove any chance of the jury sympathizing with the defendant? Since when? I should have said that they don’t usually include minor misdemeanors in a serious felony prosecution. When has an armed robber, for example, been charged with speeding away from the scene? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365/171 "2013-06-09T21:11:15Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I should have said that they don’t usually include minor misdemeanors in a serious felony prosecution. When has an armed robber, for example, been charged with speeding away from the scene? All the damn time-that’s how you negotiate. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365/172 "2013-06-09T22:15:50Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Not true. It would be a failed attempt at creating a contract, but certainly not a gift. The man would simply have no remedy at law or equity to recover his money because of his own illegal conduct, but that doesn’t mean that the money was a gift. > > As I posted above, a gift requires two things: 1) an intent to give the gift, and 2) completed delivery of the gift. He intended to give the money, but not as a gift, so it isn’t a gift. > > You seem to be hung up on the fact that it was an illegal transaction and therefore not theft. If I break into your house with the intent and for the express purpose of stealing a kilo of cocaine sitting on your coffee table, I do so, and am later charged with burglary, I can’t argue that I didn’t really steal your property because it was illegal and therefore not your property. I’m not hung up on the illegality as much as I see it as a factor which fundamentally changes the situation. The man was justified to use force to recover the money only if he had a legitimate claim to the money at the time he used the force. If the man legally owned the money and used force to take it back from the woman, then he was defending himself from a robbery. If the woman legally owned the money and the man used force to take it back from her, then he was committing a robbery. There’s an important difference between this scenario and the cocaine burglary you described. Owning cocaine and burglary are both illegal acts. So you can’t legally own the cocaine and you can’t legally steal the cocaine. But giving money to somebody is not an illegal act. So the woman did not do anything inherently illegal just by receiving the money. The man would have to show that she had acquired the money from him illegally and he would not be able to do so. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365/173 "2013-06-10T01:04:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > On a variation, suppose a panhandler is asking for money on the streets. I decide to give him a dollar. But after I hand him the bill, I see I accidentally gave him a fifty dollar bill. I ask for my money back and offer to give him the intended dollar instead. The panhandler refuses and says it’s his fifty now and he’s keeping it. > > Legally, what’s the situation here? Is he stealing my money if he doesn’t give it back when I tell him I gave it to him by mistake? At that: if this happens after dark in Texas, can he legally kill you if you take back the fifty? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365/174 "2013-06-10T02:11:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So it’s o.k. to shoot a prostitute who hasn’t given you what you think you are due, and apparently it’s o.k. to shoot someone you _think_ is a prostitute for the same reason. What if you think that the nude dancer you just gave 20 bucks to owes you something for it-I mean, we all know what they _really_ are, don’t we? And what about that pretty woman who goes on a date with you to an expensive restaurant. She orders the lobster, but no sex that night. Not even a kiss. Theft by fraud … to YOUR understanding. So you can shoot her. It’s all so simple in Texas! ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365/175 "2013-06-10T13:30:39Z")
> [@Tioga](#): > > So a lying, thieving, whore gets shot and dies. > > Sounds like a net positive for society to me. Or we could see the silver lining as one less Texan. Maybe they’ll all just shoot each other. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365/176 "2013-06-10T13:52:14Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Does it matter that the initial agreement was for the performance of an illegal act? As such, there couldn’t be a legal contract made and therefore the man had no legal basis to expect anything in return when he gave the woman the money. He gave her money. She was not legally obligated to give him anything. No. This is answered by **jtgain** , but I’d add that I’m not as sanguine as he that there’s no way to recover the money in a civil suit. Civil law is not my specialty, so I welcome correction on this, but I cannot see why he couldn’t recover in contract with a claim of unjust enrichment. > [@jtgain](#): > > I should have said that they don’t usually include minor misdemeanors in a serious felony prosecution. When has an armed robber, for example, been charged with speeding away from the scene? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > All the damn time-that’s how you negotiate. Not really, **Czarcasm** , no. In a serious felony prosecution, less serious felonies may certainly be charged as part of the negotiation process. But **jtgain** ’s literal example is correct: armed robbers are virtually never charged with speeding away from the scene. Infractions and money-only misdemeanors are simply not the same kind of bargaining chips. if it helps you, imagine the uselessness of a poker game in which someone has opened with $75,000 and the next guy tries to raise fifty cents. It doesn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365/177 "2013-06-10T14:38:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not really, **Czarcasm** , no. In a serious felony prosecution, less serious felonies may certainly be charged as part of the negotiation process. But **jtgain** ’s literal example is correct: armed robbers are virtually never charged with speeding away from the scene. Infractions and money-only misdemeanors are simply not the same kind of bargaining chips. > > if it helps you, imagine the uselessness of a poker game in which someone has opened with $75,000 and the next guy tries to raise fifty cents. It doesn’t happen. You’ve seen more than I have when it comes to this, so I think I’ll take your word for it. Now, beyond the OP-from what you have learned from this thread, the links provided, and any other source, what is your opinion on what happened here? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365/178 "2013-06-10T15:02:17Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Be clear: you don’t value the lives of thieves; is that what you mean? That’ll work. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365/179 "2013-06-10T15:05:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Thieves are human beings. They have life. What is the price of their human life to you? You apparently missed this: > [@](#): > > However, since you asked for my personal opinion…having been a victim of burglary and theft, I personally think that thieves have about as much value to humanity as dog shit on the bottom of a shoe, and there is a part of me that would like to see them all shot at sunrise after their conviction. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365/180 "2013-06-10T15:07:40Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > That’ll work. Are there any others groups you don’t value to the point of considering them to be full-fledged human beings? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-texas-you-can-shoot-a-prostitute-for-150/660365.md?page=10)