# In the bible, or no? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 8, 2002, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-bible-or-no/131345 "2002-10-08T13:06:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-bible-or-no/131345/1 "2002-10-08T13:06:33Z")
I know this question has been answered before on the boards, but I can’t find it. So could someone either answer it, or point me in the right direction, thanks. Is the fall from heaven (Satan’s), in the bible anywhere? For that matter, is there any other common religious belief that is not actually in the bible? By religious beliefs, I mean like Angels, hell, etc. (although i think I remember reading they are, at least gabriel-ten plagues of egypt). ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-bible-or-no/131345/2 "2002-10-08T13:09:45Z")
There are references to it in the New Testament (Jesus says he sees Lucifer falling), and IIRC in one of the Psalms. But the story as you normally hear it isn’t contained in the Bible. It does appear in Jewish commentaries, however. See **Asimov’s Guide to the Bible** or Robert Graves’ **Hebrew Myths** for references. (I don’t have either book here at work, and my memory is faulty). I’m sure you can find some kind of concordance on-line. ---
**Author:** ![Lsura](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Lsura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lsura)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-bible-or-no/131345/3 "2002-10-08T13:26:10Z")
The only reference I can find is Revelation 12:7-9 (I used the Douay-Rheims Bible). > [@](#): > > And there was a great battle in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought, and his angels. And they prevailed not: neither was their place found any more in heaven. And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world. And he was cast unto the earth: and his angels were thrown down with him. ---
**Author:** ![Psycho\_Pirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Psycho\_Pirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psycho_Pirate)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-bible-or-no/131345/4 "2002-10-08T14:30:17Z")
Another passage is Isaiah 14:12 **Isaiah 14:12** > [@](#): > > How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! _how_ art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-bible-or-no/131345/5 "2002-10-08T14:31:06Z")
some folks would say that Lucifer and satan are two different beings. ---
**Author:** ![RedNaxela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ad7895/32.png) [@RedNaxela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedNaxela)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-bible-or-no/131345/6 "2002-10-08T15:00:55Z")
The verse that **Psycho Pirate** cited is indeed one of the ones used as a basis for this idea. [In context, it’s talking about Nebuchadnezzar, or the Babylonian empire generally (verse 5 introduces this passage a “proverb against the king of Babylon”).] As far as Jewish tradition is concerned, I don’t know of any place where it speaks of Satan being thrown down from heaven. There are a number of places, though, which speak of angels being banished, temporarily or permanently: First of all, the Midrash (Yalkut Shimoni, Isaiah 418) explains that the parallel phrasing in this verse hints at the idea that before G-d punishes a nation, He first removes its guardian angel from power (makes it “fall from heaven,” so to speak). Various Midrashim (Yalkut Shimoni, Genesis 44, et al) also refer to a story of two angels, Shamchazai and Azael (in some places, the name of the first one is given as Uzza), who claimed that they could live on earth and withstand the temptations to which human beings were succumbing, so G-d sent them down - and they promptly became even worse than the people around them. (These Midrashim explain that Gen. 6:2-4, which mentions the corrupt behavior of [the “sons of G-d” and the Nephilim](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mgiantsons.html), refers to these angels and their descendants.) Finally, Jewish tradition also speaks of angels who were temporarily banished from heaven. One example is the angels who were sent to destroy Sodom, who were found guilty of hubris in announcing that they - rather than G-d - were going to destroy the city (Genesis Rabbah 50:9). ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-bible-or-no/131345/7 "2002-10-08T15:44:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CalMeacham \* > \*\*There are references to it in the New Testament (Jesus says he sees Lucifer falling), and IIRC in one of the Psalms. \*\* Jesus’ mention of this is tngential at best - he is talking about Satan as a defeated foe after hearing of the “exorcistic” triumphs of his disciples in [Luke 10:17-20](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=LUKE+10:17-20&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on): > [@](#): > > 17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.” > 18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” It may well be a reference to the Hebrew legends of the ejection of Satan from Heaven, which would have been familiar to his followers… Grim ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-bible-or-no/131345/8 "2002-10-08T16:15:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meatros \* > \*\* For that matter, is there any other common religious belief that is not actually in the bible? > \*\* Sure. Jesus’ time in hell after he was crucified, before he was resurrected. The word ‘rapture’ does not appear in the Bible, nor even the idea that some people will vanish (and cars suddenly driverless) when Jesus returns. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-bible-or-no/131345/9 "2002-10-08T16:22:45Z")
While angels are mentioned in the bible, many popular notions about them are not. ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-bible-or-no/131345/10 "2002-10-08T16:29:01Z")
I read somewhere that, while there are actually quite a few references in the Bible to angels generally (in Genesis, in particular), only three angels are mentioned by name in the Bible: Michael, Gabriel and Raphael. Angels figure in Daniel and Tobit, and in Luke’s story of the Annunciation. (Milton’s _Paradise Lost_ is one origin of much of the traditional imagery of Lucifer’s fall.) ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-bible-or-no/131345/11 "2002-10-08T19:35:33Z")
Is baptism actually in the bible? I seem to recall that Jesus was baptised, but I don’t remember if it was a “requirement” or not… ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-bible-or-no/131345/12 "2002-10-08T20:24:15Z")
From the end of the Gospel of Matthew: "The eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them. When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted. Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” " ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-bible-or-no/131345/13 "2002-10-08T20:28:03Z")
**Meatros** wrote: > [@](#): > > Is baptism actually in the bible? The Bible is awash in baptisms. Read the book of Acts. **Common (but wrong) beliefs:** It is commonly believed that there were three wise men. No reference in the Bible to how many wise men there were. It is commonly believed that Jesus was born on Christmas. The Bible doesn’t date his birth. It is commonly believed that the snake who tempted Eve was Satan. However, Genesis does not say so. As far as the Genesis account tells us, Eve was tempted by a talking snake. Period. It is commonly believed (by Catholics, anyway) that Peter was the first Pope. Not to bait Catholics, but the Bible doesn’t say so. Nor does it contain any reference to a Pope or any worldly head of the church. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-bible-or-no/131345/14 "2002-10-08T20:31:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spoke- \* > \*\ ***Meatros** wrote: > It is commonly believed that the snake who tempted Eve was Satan. However, Genesis does not say so. As far as the Genesis account tells us, Eve was tempted by a talking snake. Period. > \*\* And that the fruit was an apple… Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-bible-or-no/131345/15 "2002-10-08T23:58:02Z")
OK, now I’m home, and I’ve got Graves’ \*\*Hebrew Myths[/B[ open to pp. 57-59. It lists Isaiah XIV, 12-15, where th King of Babylon’s fall is likened to that of Lucifer (Helel ben Shahar), Luke X, 18 ans 2 Corinthians XI 14, which refer back to this, Enoch XXIX 4-5, and the Targum on Job XXVIII, 7. The references in the NT are vague, as **grimpixie** notes, but I said as much in my first post. ---
**Author:** ![PRNYouth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PRNYouth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PRNYouth)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-bible-or-no/131345/16 "2002-10-09T00:20:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bup \* > \*\*The word ‘rapture’ does not appear in the Bible, nor even the idea that some people will vanish (and cars suddenly driverless) when Jesus returns. \*\* From Luke 17: 28"It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30"It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32Remember Lot’s wife! 33Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. **34I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."** I agree that the word “rapture” doesn’t appear, but that certainly seems to be the idea of it right there in those verses. ---
**Author:** ![racinchikki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@racinchikki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racinchikki)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-bible-or-no/131345/17 "2002-10-09T00:45:04Z")
> [@](#): > > from **spoke-** : > It is commonly believed that Jesus was born on Christmas. The Bible doesn’t date his birth. Well, of COURSE Jesus was born on Christmas. The thing that’s in question is whether or not they put Christmas on the right date. We have no way of knowing whether Christmas should rightfully be on December 25, or maybe on April 3, or September 19… but whenever it is, it’d be Christmas that day. That’s why it’s called Christmas, after all. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-bible-or-no/131345/18 "2002-10-09T03:39:40Z")
spoke- > [@](#): > > It is commonly believed that the snake who tempted Eve was Satan. However, Genesis does not say so. As far as the Genesis account tells us, Eve was tempted by a talking snake. Period. Well, you have to understand that in Judaism, anything that tempts a person into sin is Satan or an agent thereof. That’s Satan’s role (in the understanding of Judaism) - he’s the prosecutor in the heavenly court, charged with proving that people aren’t righteous. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Elvis_Rojo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-bible-or-no/131345/19 "2002-10-09T12:52:28Z")
It’s been a while since I read the Bible, but am I right in recalling that Marry’s Assumption into Heaven isn’t mentioned in the Bible either, yet it’s one of the three issues that the Pope’s declared infalibility to hold “true” in the Church? Also, there’s no reference in the Bible of Lilith, but she’s a pretty popular character in Jewish folklore as Adam’s first wife. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-bible-or-no/131345/20 "2002-10-09T16:18:59Z")
**El Elvis Rojo** , you are correct. No mention of assumption into heaven for Mary. **cmkeller** wrote (re: the snake in the Garden of Eden): > [@](#): > > Well, you have to understand that in Judaism, anything that tempts a person into sin is Satan or an agent thereof. That’s Satan’s role (in the understanding of Judaism) - he’s the prosecutor in the heavenly court, charged with proving that people aren’t righteous. I understand that this is the _interpretation_ of the passage, both in the Jewish and Christian faiths. The question is whether the passage was originally written with that idea in mind, or whether that was a later gloss on the story. There’s certainly no mention of Satan in the passage itself. Just a talking snake. And if it was Satan, then why does the snake (and all snakes ever after) get punished? [Here’s Genesis Chapter 3](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=GEN+3&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on). Note how the chapter starts: > [@](#): > > Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. Doesn’t sound like the author is talking about Satan, but rather about the animal. (The passage reads like an Uncle Remus tale.) And then when the deed is done, the snake (and all other snakes) gets punished: > [@](#): > > Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel. This passage reads like a Just So Story explanation of how the snake lost its legs, and why it bites people. So why then does the snake get punished, if we are really talking about Satan? This tends to make me think that the “snake=Satan” interpretation was imposed on the story at a later date. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-bible-or-no/131345.md?page=2)