# In the government, we support the troops --- by lying to them. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 19, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-government-we-support-the-troops-by-lying-to-them/326927 "2005-10-19T16:29:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-government-we-support-the-troops-by-lying-to-them/326927/1 "2005-10-19T16:29:52Z")
[Why would anybody believe a fucking word that comes out of anybody’s mouth either at the Pentagon or the White House?](http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/5258954p-4774126c.html) > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON – The Pentagon has reneged on its offer to pay a $15,000 bonus to members of the National Guard and Army Reserve who agree to extend their enlistments by six years, according to Sen. Patty Murray (D-Seattle). > > The bonuses were offered in January to Active Guard and Reserve and military technician soldiers who were serving overseas. In April, the Office of the Secretary of Defense for Reserve Affairs ordered the bonuses stopped, Murray said. Yeah, I’m bashing. Bash bash bash the bastards that got us into this war and then can’t even come through on promises given to the men and women who are risking their lives for the lying bastards. Give it up and bring them home. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-government-we-support-the-troops-by-lying-to-them/326927/2 "2005-10-19T16:44:26Z")
The Bush admin started a stupid and illegal war on the flimsiest of pretenses. OK, that I can handle. But then they jerk the military around, compromising their safety and cutting their pay. The mind boggles as to why there is not open revolt. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-government-we-support-the-troops-by-lying-to-them/326927/3 "2005-10-19T16:46:59Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > The Bush admin started a stupid and illegal war on the flimsiest of pretenses. OK, that I can handle. _Somebody_ is getting complacent… ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-government-we-support-the-troops-by-lying-to-them/326927/4 "2005-10-19T16:50:03Z")
The Pentagon hasn’t reimbursed the soldiers who bought their own body armor, either. They promised they would when the media played it up that the soldiers were having to buy it themselves, but they haven’t followed through now that the heat is off. Typical. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-government-we-support-the-troops-by-lying-to-them/326927/5 "2005-10-19T16:59:13Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > The Bush admin started a stupid and illegal war on the flimsiest of pretenses. OK, that I can handle. But then they jerk the military around, compromising their safety and cutting their pay. The mind boggles as to why there is not open revolt. Because Clinton got a blowjob? Because this is a Republican administation and they CARE about the troops. How can you not know these things already? Fool. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-government-we-support-the-troops-by-lying-to-them/326927/6 "2005-10-19T17:27:12Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Because Clinton got a blowjob? I know. I’m glad we got that military hating blow job getter out of office too. It’s the democrats fault. They did it. Can’t you see that freedom is on the march? Why do our troops hate America? The only thing that I’m missing is a way to blame this on Katrina. Any suggestions? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-government-we-support-the-troops-by-lying-to-them/326927/7 "2005-10-19T17:29:51Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > The only thing that I’m missing is a way to blame this on Katrina. Ahem. Have you forgotten about a little thing called The French? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-government-we-support-the-troops-by-lying-to-them/326927/8 "2005-10-19T17:30:27Z")
Okay, so we have a member of Congress going ballistic on the basis of very incomplete information, from what I can see. Good to know SOP is being followed well here in DC. I’ve been on the receiving side of military pay, where fuckups abound. Senator Murray might well have a case here. But she has one, IMHO, only if soldiers reenlisted with that bonus as a condition, and it isn’t being paid. If the bonus program is simply being changed now, so that soldiers who haven’t reenlisted yet lose out, too bad. This has been going on for a long time now. Reenlistment bonuses aren’t guaranteed, and are typically selectively used to keep personnel strength high in critical skill sets. If a skill set isn’t critical, or if the strength is high enough there, the bonus will be lower or nonexistent. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-government-we-support-the-troops-by-lying-to-them/326927/9 "2005-10-19T18:58:14Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I’ve been on the receiving side of military pay, where fuckups abound. Senator Murray might well have a case here. But she has one, IMHO, only if soldiers reenlisted with that bonus as a condition, and it isn’t being paid. Yup, been there, done it myself. The rule for enlisted, set in stone, is as follows: Recruiters lie. Get it in writing. Until you see that clause guaranteeing your bonus, with a signature already on it, DO NOT SIGN ON THE DOTTED LINE. I’m no fan of this administration, but this isn’t a Bush administration thing. The military has been weaselling around this stuff forever. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-government-we-support-the-troops-by-lying-to-them/326927/10 "2005-10-19T19:07:43Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Ahem. > > Have you forgotten about a little thing called The French? Well, I would’ve remembered the French, but things are different after 9/11. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-government-we-support-the-troops-by-lying-to-them/326927/11 "2005-10-19T19:52:00Z")
Don’t forget Poland! ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-government-we-support-the-troops-by-lying-to-them/326927/12 "2005-10-19T21:34:30Z")
“Why would anybody believe a fucking word that comes out of anybody’s mouth either at the Pentagon or the White House?” You don’t listen to conservative talk radio, do you? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![fushj00mang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@fushj00mang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fushj00mang)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-government-we-support-the-troops-by-lying-to-them/326927/13 "2005-10-19T22:42:28Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > The Bush admin started a stupid and illegal war on the flimsiest of pretenses. OK, that I can handle. But then they jerk the military around, compromising their safety and cutting their pay. **The mind boggles as to why there is not open revolt.** May I direct you to Articles 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, and 94 of the UCMJ. That’s part of the reason there isn’t ‘open revolt’ among the troops. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-government-we-support-the-troops-by-lying-to-them/326927/14 "2005-10-19T22:48:49Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Okay, so we have a member of Congress going ballistic on the basis of very incomplete information, from what I can see. From the linked article. > [@](#): > > A Pentagon spokeswoman, Lt. Col. Ellen Krenke, confirmed the bonuses had been canceled. > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I’ve been on the receiving side of military pay, where fuckups abound. Senator Murray might well have a case here. But she has one, IMHO, only if soldiers reenlisted with that bonus as a condition, and it isn’t being paid. From the linked artcle. > [@](#): > > The senator said she first learned the bonus program had been canceled this summer from members of the Washington National Guard. In late August she wrote officials of the Pentagon’s National Guard Bureau demanding an immediate explanation. > > The decision to cancel the bonuses had caused “tremendous uncertainty” among Guard members who had been counting on the money after they decided to re-enlist, Murray said in her August letter. So, in conclusion: read the fucking artcle. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-government-we-support-the-troops-by-lying-to-them/326927/15 "2005-10-19T23:02:04Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > If the bonus program is simply being changed now, so that soldiers who haven’t reenlisted yet lose out, too bad. […] Reenlistment bonuses aren’t guaranteed, and are typically selectively used to keep personnel strength high in critical skill sets. If a skill set isn’t critical, or if the strength is high enough there, the bonus will be lower or nonexistent. I can see this being valid as a general rule, but it would surprise me to learn that personnel strength in the Guard has actually reached the desired levels now, thus enabling the Pentagon to cancel the bonus program for future re-enlisters. Military recruitment is still struggling pretty much across the board, as far as I can make out. And actually reading the linked article, as **Biggirl** suggests, reveals that the bonuses have been stopped not because the program was deemed no longer necessary, but because it was said to violate another policy: > [@](#): > > A Pentagon spokeswoman, Lt. Col. Ellen Krenke, confirmed the bonuses had been canceled, saying they violated Pentagon policies because they duplicated other programs. She said Guard and Reserve members would be eligible for other bonuses. > > Krenke said some soldiers had been paid the re-enlistment bonuses, but she was unsure how many or whether the money would have to be repaid. :eek: Lawsy. Not only have promised bonuses been rescinded, because the Pentagon happened to notice that they were against the rules, but some soldiers who did receive them might have to **repay** them? And the Pentagon hasn’t even been able to figure out yet whether that’s so? No, this is not looking like a big boost for troop morale so far. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-government-we-support-the-troops-by-lying-to-them/326927/16 "2005-10-19T23:02:53Z")
Yes, they had been “counting on the money.” But they had not signed contracts saying it _would_ be paid. They merely expected it to happen, taking Uncle Sugar at his word. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-government-we-support-the-troops-by-lying-to-them/326927/17 "2005-10-19T23:07:35Z")
We did. And yes, it should have been in their re-enlistment package. But again, it’s up to those service people to CHECK that re-enlistment package for the clause stating the bonus was included. Is it bullshit spewed by recruiters? YES!! Is it underhanded and slimy? YES! Not in dispute. All **Mr. Moto** was saying (I think…at least, all _I_ was saying…) is that it might not be actionable unless the wording of their enlistment contract included the guarantee of that bonus. And the article doesn’t speak to that. All it said is: > [@](#): > > The Pentagon has reneged on its offer to pay a $15,000 bonus to members of the National Guard and Army Reserve who agree to extend their enlistments by six years, according to Sen. Patty Murray (D-Seattle). If it’s in their re-enlistment papers, then yes, absolutely, hang 'em. And pay those soldiers their damn money. So far, no one has produced a document showing that’s what’s happened, though. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-government-we-support-the-troops-by-lying-to-them/326927/18 "2005-10-19T23:10:37Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > So, in conclusion: read the fucking artcle. Isn’t this a fairly standard breach of contract, then? Or is it just an assumption that your average soldier doesn’t have the money for a long legal battle and, therefore, they should just bend over and take it? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-government-we-support-the-troops-by-lying-to-them/326927/19 "2005-10-19T23:18:31Z")
You can’t sue the military if you are in the military, making all contracts with the military based on trusting the military to keep their word. Which they don’t because they are a bunch of fucking liars and have enough people willing to shrug their shoulders when the Pentagon fucks our men and women in uniform over. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-government-we-support-the-troops-by-lying-to-them/326927/20 "2005-10-19T23:27:11Z")
That’s not entirely true. If the military does not uphold all the provisions set forth in the re-enlistment papers, then the service person can be released from duty (administrative discharge-honorable). I did this in 1991, when I extended my active duty tour with the provision that I would beenrolled in the program for surgery techs. That didn’t happen, and I was billeted to NAS, Lemoore. Nuh uh. It says RIGHT FUCKING HERE in my GODDAMN PAPERS!! There were no spots open in the surgery tech school. I was told I could either take the billet in Lemoore and re-apply for the school in 4 years, or take an admin discharge. Thanks loads, gimme the discharge. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-government-we-support-the-troops-by-lying-to-them/326927.md?page=2)