# In the hamPster vein, what phrase grates you? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 12, 2003, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-hampster-vein-what-phrase-grates-you/174637 "2003-05-12T06:06:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-hampster-vein-what-phrase-grates-you/174637/101 "2003-05-15T09:55:02Z")
“Itch my back”. I realize (according to [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com)) that apparently it’s technically correct, but it drives me nuts. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-hampster-vein-what-phrase-grates-you/174637/102 "2003-05-15T11:41:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\*Okay, if that’s a specific reference to orient/orientate, let’s see the original quote. If that’s what he said, he’s full of crap. \*\* I’ve included it twice already. Look back. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-hampster-vein-what-phrase-grates-you/174637/103 "2003-05-15T11:54:17Z")
Okay, my mistake (though I only see it once…). Do you have an online cite for it? I don’t have the book. If he actually said “one can have no fundamental quarrel with anyone who decides to use the longer of the two words” and didn’t mean it ironically (since I don’t know the context), then he’s full of crap. “Grammar authorities” are usually full of crap, anyway. There is no one authority, because a lot of grammar is subjective. But there are a few self-absorbed scribes who feel that What They Say Is Important and should always be followed. Nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![williamweigand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b3f665/32.png) [@williamweigand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/williamweigand)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-hampster-vein-what-phrase-grates-you/174637/104 "2003-05-15T13:00:19Z")
I’m surprised no one else caught these:To quote KCSuze"My mother is an ex- English teacher,and she rigorously drilled my brohers and I on the rules of proper grammar.“Shouldn’t that be “my brothers and me”?And,to quote mrunlucky” ‘Methinks’…It uses less letters to say ‘I think’ ".Shouldn’t that be “fewer” letters? ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-hampster-vein-what-phrase-grates-you/174637/105 "2003-05-15T22:29:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\*Do you have an online cite for it? I don’t have the book. > \*\* A quick google comes up with [this review](http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/96dec/fowler/fowler.htm) of Fowler’s book. It doesn’t give the full quotation, but about 3/4 of the way down it references orient/orientate and gives part of the quotation that I used. The review also gives a bit of background about the book itself. Note that as Fowler has been dead for some time, with different editors responsible for more recent editions, it is difficult to tell which view comes from which editor. The review that I cite indicates that the orient/orientate position is that of the most recent editor. My first cite of Fowler (in case that is the one you cannot find), makes refernce to “subsequent editors”. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-hampster-vein-what-phrase-grates-you/174637/106 "2003-05-15T22:41:26Z")
I actually had a dictionary at work that said of the two, “orient” was the correct and preferred term. But of course, I’m home now and don’t have it in front of me to quote from… But… > [@](#): > > On the orient-orientate debate – the words have identical meanings but orientate is sometimes objected to – he says that he has somewhat arbitrarily decided to use the former himself, but “one can have no fundamental quarrel” with the longer form (from the link you provided) So Fowler uses “orient” anyway - he just saw nothing wrong with using “orientate.” But you have to remember that his first edition was in 1926 - 77 years ago. He may not have objected to the use of “orientate” then, but the language has evolved since then. Words that were used then are now antiquities. Yes, I know, he published other editions while he was alive, but I still doubt he’d be so quick to accept the longer word if he were alive today. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-hampster-vein-what-phrase-grates-you/174637/107 "2003-05-15T22:54:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\*(from the link you provided) > > So Fowler uses “orient” anyway - he just saw nothing wrong with using “orientate.” > > But you have to remember that his first edition was in 1926 - 77 years ago. He may not have objected to the use of “orientate” then, but the language has evolved since then. Words that were used then are now antiquities. Yes, I know, he published other editions while he was alive, but I still doubt he’d be so quick to accept the longer word if he were alive today. \*\* The review makes it pretty clear that the view on orientate comes from the most recent editor, Burchfield, so I don’t think you can claim the idea was old-fashioned. The paragraph begins “In a wide variety of examples Burchfield shows a much more descriptive, or at least open-minded, attitude than his predecessors did.” then leads in to several examples including orientate. However, I will agree with you that different “experts” have different views on what is correct or best usage. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-hampster-vein-what-phrase-grates-you/174637/108 "2003-05-15T23:10:29Z")
You’re right, it’s from Burchfield. Which means that whole quote is Burchfield’s, not Fowler’s. The “he” in the quote: > [@](#): > > On the orient-orientate debate – the words have identical meanings but orientate is sometimes objected to – he says that he has somewhat arbitrarily decided to use the former himself, but “one can have no fundamental quarrel” with the longer form. is not Fowler, but Burchfield. The review is referring to the ideas and viewpoint (at least in that passage and the one preceding it) of the _editor_, not the original author. Which just illustrates the point further that different experts have different opinions on grammar - even if they’re working on the same book. ---
**Author:** ![Flamsterette\_X](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/41988e/32.png) [@Flamsterette\_X](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flamsterette_X)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-hampster-vein-what-phrase-grates-you/174637/109 "2003-05-15T23:48:57Z")
The “drownded” thing sounds like what my mother ALWAYS does with certain words… “teached” “solded” “writed” etc. AIYA! F\_X ---
**Author:** ![Pixiesnix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/898d66/32.png) [@Pixiesnix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pixiesnix)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-hampster-vein-what-phrase-grates-you/174637/110 "2003-05-16T05:22:48Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m surprised no one else caught these:To quote KCSuze"My mother is an ex- English teacher,and she rigorously drilled my brohers and I on the rules of proper grammar."Shouldn’t that be “my brothers and me”? You caught me. That rule has always evaded me throughout my days. What’s my pennance? And since one good turn deserves another, **williamweigand** , the space bar is your friend. Closely spaced sentences made your post very difficult to read. Also, there is a quote option available that makes quotes stand out better. ---
**Author:** ![mrunlucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7993a0/32.png) [@mrunlucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrunlucky)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-hampster-vein-what-phrase-grates-you/174637/111 "2003-05-16T08:14:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by williamweigand \* > \*\*And,to quote mrunlucky" ‘Methinks’…It uses less letters to say ‘I think’ ".Shouldn’t that be “fewer” letters? \*\* You are correct about my error. I should have said “fewer” letters because I was refering to a thing of which there were many, instead of a thing of which there is much. If I’d said “much less” I’d be in real trouble. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-hampster-vein-what-phrase-grates-you/174637/112 "2003-05-16T14:13:21Z")
My fiance uses the word “prejudism” constantly, instead of discrimination or prejudice. Now, granite, the “ism” isn’t per se misappropriated, irregardless of you’re… Ow, it hurts to even try writing that way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-hampster-vein-what-phrase-grates-you/174637.md?page=5)