# In the Navy what is the difference between "standard rudder," or "full rudder" or "hard rudder"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 19, 2020, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737 "2020-07-19T06:59:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737/21 "2020-07-20T01:58:35Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > [And the San Juan sort of shortened the sail popping up through the ice on her first ICEX] Sounds a little too exciting for me… ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737/22 "2020-07-20T05:34:55Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > I was on three 688s. You? > [@aruvqan](#): > > mrAru was on the USS Spadefish [one of the Sturgeons] the USS Miami and the USS San Juan. > > [And the San Juan sort of shortened the sail popping up through the ice on her first ICEX] I was on one 688, actually the USS San Juan for that first ICEX. Not only was the sail considerably worse for wear after breaking through the ice numerous times, but the rubber coating on the sonar dome was also damaged. A few months later, it started peeling off while transiting at high speed, and a big chunk of it came loose and smacked into the sail. At first we thought we’d had a collision with something (like that Russian sub that allegedly hit a whale). It took us a while to figure out what had actually happened. We ended up with an unscheduled drydock period in King’s Bay, Georgia to repair it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737/23 "2020-07-20T12:36:53Z")
> [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](#): > > Can ‘Greyhound’ be watched on any other platform than iHugeMonthlyBill? > > It seems like a good movie, but paying another monthly bill is silly. Nope. It is an exclusive of theirs. There are websites that show copies of it but they tend to be dodgy at best. I am not sure you are missing much. It is not as good as I hoped. It is discussed in [this thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/greyhound-can-a-non-stop-action-movie-with-tom-hanks-be-boring/915209) if you are interested. ---
**Author:** ![Ryz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryz/32/13213_2.png) [@Ryz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryz)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737/24 "2020-07-20T13:15:03Z")
Yeah, that was an interesting read. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737/25 "2020-07-20T13:29:04Z")
> [@robby](#): > > I was on one 688, actually the USS San Juan for that first ICEX. > > Not only was the sail considerably worse for wear after breaking through the ice numerous times, but the rubber coating on the sonar dome was also damaged. A few months later, it started peeling off while transiting at high speed, and a big chunk of it came loose and smacked into the sail. At first we thought we’d had a collision with something (like that Russian sub that allegedly hit a whale). It took us a while to figure out what had actually happened. We ended up with an unscheduled drydock period in King’s Bay, Georgia to repair it. I remember when he was down in Kings Bay for that. Remember raiding the arctic research station for food =)? ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737/26 "2020-07-20T16:46:27Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Other helm orders included “Rudder amidships,” meaning to bring the rudder back to zero degrees; and “Shift your rudder,” meaning to shift the rudder to the exact opposite of the previous order, like from right 5 degrees rudder to left 5 degrees rudder. What sort of circumstances might call for a rudder shift maneuver? ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737/27 "2020-07-20T17:16:52Z")
1. One reason might be an OOD who immediately realizes or had it brought to his/her attention that they had just ordered the opposite rudder order from what they had intended. 😉 2. Another reason is to check the swing of the ship. If you’re in a right turn, and you order the rudder to amidships (neutral), the ship will continue to swing to the right for a time. 3. Yet another reason is if the OOD orders a right turn, and realizes that the ship has already swung to the right past the heading of the new intended course. Sometimes the OOD gives a rudder order before the Quartermaster or navigation team has figured out what the new course should be. 4. Or sometimes a ship is turning to the right (for example), and the OOD realizes that they are getting too close to something (assigned boundary, shallow water, another vessel, etc.) and they now want to turn left to avoid it. I’m sure there are other reasons but those are some to that come to mind off the top of my head. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveroptic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiveroptic/32/8257_2.png) [@Fiveroptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveroptic)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737/28 "2020-07-20T17:42:35Z")
> [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](#): > > Hey. Side Topic. Can ‘Greyhound’ be watched on any other platform than iHugeMonthlyBill? No. BUT—Apple TV and Apple Plus have a free trial week. You’d need to get the trial for Apple TV then another trial for Apple Plus, and then cancel it within a week if you still didn’t want it. But you’d watch “Greyhound” for free. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737/29 "2020-07-20T17:49:57Z")
Are rudder orders given with port and starboard, or right and left? ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737/30 "2020-07-20T20:26:51Z")
> [@robby](#): > > One reason might be an OOD who immediately realizes or had it brought to his/her attention that they had just ordered the opposite rudder order from what they had intended. 😉 I’ve heard that a time or two. 😃 [Ship is on course 275.] OOD: Helm, left five degrees rudder. Steady on course three zero zero. Helm: Left five degrees rudder, steady on course three zero zero. DOOW: Long way around, sir. OOD: Helm, shift your rudder. Steady on course three zero zero. Thank you, Dive. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Are rudder orders given with port and starboard, or right and left? Right and left, as in Robby’s and my examples. ---
**Author:** ![abcdefghij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/43a26b/32.png) [@abcdefghij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abcdefghij)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737/31 "2020-07-20T23:09:18Z")
> [@robby](#): > > I’m sure there are other reasons but those are some to that come to mind off the top of my head. - Williamson turn for man overboard - Crazy Ivan (we never did it, but I always pictured it as an underwater Williamson turn) ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737/32 "2020-07-21T01:08:30Z")
> [@robby](#): > > I’m sure there are other reasons but those are some to that come to mind off the top of my head. Thanks. To be honest, I was hoping there was some sort of cool tactical reason like the torpedoes launched or flicked a little faster while the boat was turning or the rotating could help (talking out of my ass here) fool enemy’s listening into determining a false heading. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737/33 "2020-07-21T01:13:57Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > [Ship is on course 275.] > OOD: Helm, left five degrees rudder. Steady on course three zero zero. > Helm: Left five degrees rudder, steady on course three zero zero. > DOOW: Long way around, sir. > OOD: Helm, shift your rudder. Steady on course three zero zero. Thank you, Dive. “Long way around” means he’s going to turn 340 degrees to make 300? So, change the rudder and straighten it when you reach 300? ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737/34 "2020-07-21T01:18:05Z")
Yes – turning 335 degrees instead of 25. A little before 300, actually – the ship will continue swinging a little after the rudder is centered. But the end result will be that the ship is on a heading of 300. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737/35 "2020-07-21T01:42:36Z")
“Shift your helm.” In one of the Jack Aubrey books, and officer has Gerstmann Syndrome, and orders “Hard starboard!..I mean, port!” with disastrous results. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737/36 "2020-07-21T02:03:14Z")
> [@abcdefghij](#): > > > [@robby](#): > > > > I’m sure there are other reasons but those are some to that come to mind off the top of my head. > > - Williamson turn for man overboard Good one! Lord knows we did enough of these drills (the main point of which seemed to be to convince sailors to not fall overboard 🤨) that I should have thought of this one… > [@jnglmassiv](#): > > Thanks. To be honest, I was hoping there was some sort of cool tactical reason… Well, there is often a lot of maneuvering done in tactical situations, so I’m sure there are tactical situations in which such a rudder order would be given. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737/37 "2020-07-21T16:48:15Z")
Some bridges are [more informal](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZhWma7NhiA) than others. ---
**Author:** ![GinoC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f4b2a3/32.png) [@GinoC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GinoC)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737/38 "2020-07-21T22:36:39Z")
I’ll throw in a Canadian/Commonwealth perspective. I say Commonwealth since most Commonwealth navies began as offshoots of the Royal Navy and adopted their bridge practices. Helm orders are always given by port/starboard and the number of degrees of rudder angle. Standard helm for most ships in the RCN is 15 degrees, so if the Officer of the Watch (what the USN calls an Officer of the Deck) wants to alter course to port, they would order “Port 15”. The helmsman would repeat the order and when conducted report “15 of port wheel on, Sir/Ma’am”. The OOW will then order the helm to midships prior to giving the helmsman a three digit compass course to steer. A hard rudder order is usually 30 degrees of helm. To complicate matters a bit, the Captain of a ship rarely takes the con, except when manoeuvring alongside or away from a berth, or in an emergency situation when the Captain wants direct control. When giving direction to the OOW, the Captain will say something like “come left 245 (an example compass course)” and the OOW translates this into the rudder order for the helmsman. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2020, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737/39 "2020-07-22T14:04:18Z")
What does the Chief of Boat say when the OOD orders "house the anchor? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2020, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737/40 "2020-07-22T14:39:23Z")
Why use right and left, rather than the more nautical terms starboard and port? > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > “Shift your helm.” > In one of the Jack Aubrey books, and officer has Gerstmann Syndrome, and orders “Hard starboard!..I mean, port!” with disastrous results. Yes, that was in _The Surgeon’s Mate_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-navy-what-is-the-difference-between-standard-rudder-or-full-rudder-or-hard-rudder/915737.md?page=3)