# In the UK, is the term “shire” frequently used? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 8, 2022, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-uk-is-the-term-shire-frequently-used/957444 "2022-01-08T19:24:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-uk-is-the-term-shire-frequently-used/957444/1 "2022-01-08T19:24:32Z")
Assuming that we’re not talking about LotR, are any of the counties commonly referred to as shires? Does it matter if we’re talking about a county with -shire as the suffix? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-uk-is-the-term-shire-frequently-used/957444/2 "2022-01-08T19:45:58Z")
There are quite a few English counties with the suffix -shire. So if you use the county name, shire is part of that; for example Yorkshire and Lancashire. There are also several counties with the suffix -sex (no, not that meaning!) e.g. Middlesex and Essex. I suppose the main use of county names is in cricket, where the National League consists of County teams. From my point of view, ‘Shire’ means the Lord of the Rings. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-uk-is-the-term-shire-frequently-used/957444/3 "2022-01-08T19:51:02Z")
Would anyone ever refer to “the shire of Kent” etc? ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-uk-is-the-term-shire-frequently-used/957444/4 "2022-01-08T20:31:42Z")
It would be an odd way of referring to it. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-uk-is-the-term-shire-frequently-used/957444/5 "2022-01-08T20:34:10Z")
Yeah, not normally. Someone might do it if they were trying to jokingly mimic old fashioned language i.e. “Yeoman of the bar, render me the King’s Pint of foaming ale from the shire of Kent” (I’ve never heard anyone actually do that, but it’s the only kind of context I can think it would arise) ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-uk-is-the-term-shire-frequently-used/957444/6 "2022-01-08T21:24:52Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > Would anyone ever refer to “the shire of Kent” etc? Not in England. Maybe a couple of towns in Western Australia, but Kent never was a shire. > [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > Does it matter if we’re talking about a county with -shire as the suffix? Not in the least. Middlesex is no longer a county (abolished in the 1960s), although there is still a Middlesex University and a Middlesex cricket team. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2022, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-uk-is-the-term-shire-frequently-used/957444/7 "2022-01-09T01:56:56Z")
In New South Wales and some other Australian states, local government was divided into council areas - generally urban / town based - and shires - more rural and urban fringe. That terminology is changing, but it remains in some specific usages. Our beloved Prime Minister Scott Morrison’s seat is centred on Sutherland Shire on Sydney’s edge, which is universally known as ‘The Shire’. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2022, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-uk-is-the-term-shire-frequently-used/957444/8 "2022-01-09T05:17:22Z")
One odd fossilization of “shire”: “sheriff” comes from “shire reeve”, a royally-appointed officer representing the Crown in a shire. > **[sheriff | Etymology, origin and meaning of sheriff by etymonline](https://www.etymonline.com/word/sheriff)** > > SHERIFF Meaning: "high crown official having various legal and administrative duties within a jurisdiction," from late… See origin and meaning of sheriff. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2022, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-uk-is-the-term-shire-frequently-used/957444/9 "2022-01-09T11:55:47Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > In New South Wales and some other Australian states, local government was divided into council areas - generally urban / town based - and shires - more rural and urban fringe. +1 The largest local government area (LGA) is [East Pilbara](https://www.eastpilbara.wa.gov.au/) in north east WA Covering 372,571 km²; East Pilbara is larger than the state of Victoria ( 227,444 km²) or the United Kingdom (242,495 km²) and is home to a bit over 10,000 people, about half of whom live in the mining town of Newman. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2022, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-uk-is-the-term-shire-frequently-used/957444/10 "2022-01-09T12:28:11Z")
Shire is derived from the Anglo-Saxon word for what (Norman) French calls a county. And as in so much else to do with government the Norman usage wins out, when it comes to the legal entity of local government. So while there’ll be some residual references to “shire”, for local government it’s "county’ even when “shire” is in the county’s name. Just about the only reference to “shire” in a generic or abstract sense that I can think of is the occasional (but now more or less gone) term “knights of the shires” as a jokey reference to long-serving Tory back-bench MPs, usually from very safe rural constituencies, and considered to be the centre of gravity in the party and (usually) dependably loyal to the leadership (until suddenly they’re not, and there’s a delegation sent for a “quiet word” to the powers that be). ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2022, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-uk-is-the-term-shire-frequently-used/957444/11 "2022-01-09T14:37:34Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > So while there’ll be some residual references to “shire”, for local government it’s "county’ even when “shire” is in the county’s name.- Well that’s too bad since shire is about 100% cooler sounding than county. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2022, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-uk-is-the-term-shire-frequently-used/957444/12 "2022-01-09T17:21:43Z")
I think they use the name for a unit of local government in Australia. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2022, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-uk-is-the-term-shire-frequently-used/957444/13 "2022-01-10T04:42:33Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > about half of whom live in the mining town of Newman. There’s a town of [Newman in County Stanislaushire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newman%2C_California), California. There is a massively huge horse breed called a [Shire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shire_horse). ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2022, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-uk-is-the-term-shire-frequently-used/957444/14 "2022-01-10T08:31:40Z")
> [@glee](#): > > There are quite a few English counties with the suffix -shire. So if you use the county name, shire is part of that; for example Yorkshire and Lancashire. As I understand it, there are also some counties where the -shire suffix in the name is optional. Devon, for instance, can be called just Devon but also Devonshire (even though the latter seems to be rather archaic). ---
**Author:** ![TokenRing](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokenring/32/3559_2.png) [@TokenRing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokenRing)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2022, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-uk-is-the-term-shire-frequently-used/957444/15 "2022-01-10T09:36:19Z")
Sometimes “The Shires” is used as a collective noun for counties, particularly rural counties. It is usually politician or journalist speak. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2022, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-uk-is-the-term-shire-frequently-used/957444/16 "2022-01-10T10:18:54Z")
I was thinking this. The only time I could imagine it being referenced would be someone (jokingly) referring to the countryside. eg ‘Haven’t seen Joe in years. He moved out to the Shires years ago’. Kind of like another word for the Sticks. But in general answer to the OP, no, we don’t drop ‘shire’ into everyday language. ---
**Author:** ![TCMF-2L](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tcmf-2l/32/16553_2.png) [@TCMF-2L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TCMF-2L)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2022, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-uk-is-the-term-shire-frequently-used/957444/17 "2022-01-10T12:46:45Z")
There are still a few municipal buildings around called Shire Hall. I know the one in Reading, Berkshire. > **[County hall](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_hall)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > > A county hall or shire hall is a common name given to a building that houses the seat of local government for a county. > The location of the county hall has usually denoted the county town. > In the case of Surrey, England, when county boundaries changed the county hall remained in Kingston upon Thames. County halls usually contain a council chamber, committee rooms and offices. TCMF-2L ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2022, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-uk-is-the-term-shire-frequently-used/957444/18 "2022-01-10T13:56:22Z")
Wikipedia says in the US that the states of Vermont, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, and Maine still use the term “shire town” when referring to what is called a “county seat” in other states. The Society for Creative Anachronism (a medieval re-enactment group) uses the term _shire_ for “a local branch that reports through a principality or kingdom. It is a lot like a canton, except it is not part of a barony.” ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2022, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-uk-is-the-term-shire-frequently-used/957444/19 "2022-01-10T14:14:53Z")
There are a few -shires within Yorkshire that are not counted among the list of official counties, such as Allertonshire, Richmondshire and Howdenshire. Perhaps the most famous of these is Hallamshire, which gives its name to the local hospital and golf club in Sheffield. The term ‘shire’ is rarely used by itself, even in these contexts.