# In the US, what determines my gender for legal purposes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 14, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-us-what-determines-my-gender-for-legal-purposes/557130 "2010-10-14T14:26:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-us-what-determines-my-gender-for-legal-purposes/557130/1 "2010-10-14T14:26:14Z")
In the US, what determines my gender for legal purposes? ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-us-what-determines-my-gender-for-legal-purposes/557130/2 "2010-10-14T14:41:33Z")
According to an episode of Law and Order: Special Victims Unit that I saw recently, it’s whether you have a penis. So let’s you hope you’re not a pre-op transsexual facing prison time. According to [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_transsexualism_in_the_United_States#Passports) and [its source](http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86784.pdf) that seems to be somewhat accurate: > [@Wikipedia on passports in regards to gender](#): > > The State Department determines what identifying biographical information is placed on passports. On 2010-06-10 the policy on gender changes was amended to allow permanent gender marker changes to be made with the statement of a physician that “the applicant has had appropriate clinical treatment for gender transition to the new gender”. The previous policy required a statement from a surgeon that gender reassignment surgery was completed. So as long as you’ve undergone treatment for gender transition you can put down whatever gender you transitioned to on your passport, which is good enough for me. I don’t know what the difference between “treatment for gender transition” and “gender reassignment surgery” is, however. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-us-what-determines-my-gender-for-legal-purposes/557130/3 "2010-10-14T14:45:14Z")
I think that it’s also possible that state laws are different, so you might be a man under federal law and a woman under state law, or vice versa. I got that impression from once hearing a talk from an MTF transsexual living in Ohio. ---
**Author:** ![filling\_pages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9bd4f/32.png) [@filling\_pages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filling_pages)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-us-what-determines-my-gender-for-legal-purposes/557130/4 "2010-10-14T16:46:28Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > I don’t know what the difference between “treatment for gender transition” and “gender reassignment surgery” is, however. Hormones. The difference is that “treatment” can be just taking hormones for a while, as opposed to having surgery. Since many trans people do not have genital surgery for various reasons (it’s very expensive, results aren’t always great, some people just don’t like the thought of cutting up their junk), basing it on hormone therapy rather than surgery makes a lot of sense. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-us-what-determines-my-gender-for-legal-purposes/557130/5 "2010-10-14T16:57:44Z")
We had some informative threads about the transition process, with transsexual Dopers participating. So far as I can remember it, the stages are: 1. Psychotherapy aimed at determining whether the gender dysphoria is “real” – i.e., properly treated by gender reassignment, or not. Patient generally ‘presents as’ (lives as, shows self to world as) old gender. 2. More psychotherapy, aimed at assisting transition. This continues through steps 3 and 4. Patient now begins presenting as new gender. 3. Hormonal therapy aimed at bringing out secondary sexual characteristics of new gender and diminishing those of old gender. (Ex.: breasts, facial hair) Most so-called “shemales” (a very non-PC term) or futanari, with both breasts and functional penis, are in this stage, which some stop at (e.g., Lady Chablis). 4. Sexual reassignment surgery. ---
**Author:** ![filling\_pages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9bd4f/32.png) [@filling\_pages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filling_pages)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-us-what-determines-my-gender-for-legal-purposes/557130/6 "2010-10-14T17:09:54Z")
But that can all be mixed and muddled. There are ways to get around step 1, a lot of people skip step 2 there altogether if they are not the type to seek therapy in general, and there is not one specific “sexual reassignment surgery”. That phrase can include chest reconstruction for a trans man, at least a half dozen different types of genital surgery, and a few other odds and ends that can take place all at once or spread out over years. Also, no transsexual women I know who have not have anything done below the belt would take kindly to being called “futanari” (let alone shemales, which is an out and out slur). They are simply women, with the assumption being that what they are or are not still carrying is between them and their sexual partners. But I have to add a little respect for Lady Chablis, who was born right outside my hometown. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-us-what-determines-my-gender-for-legal-purposes/557130/7 "2010-10-14T18:14:22Z")
[Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_transsexualism_in_the_United_States) is Wikipedia’s more general writeup on applicable law in the US. It’s a muddle. It looks like some states recognize only chromosomes, some will issue a new birth certificate on the basis of a physician’s statement, and some will do so with a court order. And how much one has to demonstrate to get such a statement or order probably varies too. I love the fact that the first case to address legal aspects of transsexualism was _Anonymous vs. Weiner_. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-us-what-determines-my-gender-for-legal-purposes/557130/8 "2010-10-14T18:25:50Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > In the US, what determines my gender for legal purposes? Officially, the US legal system is supposed to treat all citizens the same, regardless of gender. So what point would there be to any definition of gender for legal purposes? ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-us-what-determines-my-gender-for-legal-purposes/557130/9 "2010-10-14T18:43:19Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > > [@Frylock](#): > > > > In the US, what determines my gender for legal purposes? > > Officially, the US legal system is supposed to treat all citizens the same, regardless of gender. So what point would there be to any definition of gender for legal purposes? As pointed out above, which prison do you get sent to? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-us-what-determines-my-gender-for-legal-purposes/557130/10 "2010-10-14T18:43:36Z")
> [@filling\_pages](#): > > But that can all be mixed and muddled. There are ways to get around step 1, a lot of people skip step 2 there altogether if they are not the type to seek therapy in general, and there is not one specific “sexual reassignment surgery”. That phrase can include chest reconstruction for a trans man, at least a half dozen different types of genital surgery, and a few other odds and ends that can take place all at once or spread out over years. > > Also, no transsexual women I know who have not have anything done below the belt would take kindly to being called “futanari” (let alone shemales, which is an out and out slur). They are simply women, with the assumption being that what they are or are not still carrying is between them and their sexual partners. > > But I have to add a little respect for Lady Chablis, who was born right outside my hometown. True. Two points: 1. I was outlining a rough “usual process” format, not trying to describe a one-size-fits-all scenario. And I see how I failed to make that clear. 2. Agreed. For the public, MTF transsexuals in any stage are _women_, pure and simple (or men, for the FTM ones) – and as I tried to note, I was quit well aware of how much of a slur those terms were, just trying to nail down where they fit into the picture for those whose only knowledge of transsexuality is from them. No insult to anyone was intended. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-us-what-determines-my-gender-for-legal-purposes/557130/11 "2010-10-14T20:16:06Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > So what point would there be to any definition of gender for legal purposes? Determining what gets put on identification documents such as a passport or driver’s license, for example. Also for determining who can marry (in most states). ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-us-what-determines-my-gender-for-legal-purposes/557130/12 "2010-10-14T20:22:50Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Also for determining who can marry (in most states). So, for example, if you are an MTF transgendered person (i.e., a man who has become a woman), and if the state does not recognise your sex change or same-sex marriages, you, as a woman thought by the state to be a man, can only marry a woman. However, if the state recognises your sex change, you can only marry a man. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-us-what-determines-my-gender-for-legal-purposes/557130/13 "2010-10-14T23:54:25Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > > [@Frylock](#): > > > > In the US, what determines my gender for legal purposes? > > Officially, the US legal system is supposed to treat all citizens the same, regardless of gender. So what point would there be to any definition of gender for legal purposes? For the purpose of getting a marriage license in most states. For the purpose of being able to file income tax as married. The so-called “defense of [sic] marriage act” (realy defense against marriage) makes it a serious legal question. Also, let’s say you are in the army and date males. Then if you are legally a female, fine. If you are legally a male, you are toast. ---
**Author:** ![Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8c91f0/32.png) [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bam_Boo_Gut)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-us-what-determines-my-gender-for-legal-purposes/557130/14 "2010-10-15T02:50:30Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > So let’s you hope you’re not a pre-op transsexual facing prison time. I fully expect someone in this situation to post shortly - this is the SDMB after all. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-us-what-determines-my-gender-for-legal-purposes/557130/15 "2010-10-15T03:47:03Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > I think that it’s also possible that state laws are different, so you might be a man under federal law and a woman under state law, or vice versa. I got that impression from once hearing a talk from an MTF transsexual living in Ohio. As stated, it varies widely from state to state. In some states the process is relatively easy. I believe some states will even change your driver’s licence and other papers without requiring surgery, which is very important for many trans people who cannot access or do not want SRS but who need papers that conform to the identity they live and present every day. In other states the procedure is much more difficult and in still others it’s completely impossible. (A young man I like is going through this right now. Although he has lived his whole life in Manitoba, he happened to be born when his parents were briefly living in Pennsylvania. Fortunately it is actually possible in Pennsylvania, but he’s having, for example, a devil of a time convincing them that it is not possible to get a “court-ordered name change” in Manitoba because in Canada we don’t use court orders to change names; it’s an administrative procedure.) Another issue is what happens if you are intersex, which is not an especially uncommon medical situation. In such a case, sex is assigned on your birth certificate on the basis of a cursory visual examination (like everyone else), or if your genitals are considered ambiguous, you might be subjected to normalizing surgery with little care for your future sexual response, privacy, or mental health, and often without fully informing the parents of the nature of your condition (there have been cases where it was performed without the parents’ knowledge). Contrary to popular belief, assigned sex does not necessarily correspond to chromosomes (karyotype), as there are a fair number of people born with vulvas who identify as women but who have XY chromosomes due to androgen insensitivity syndrome, and likewise for other conditions. As for prisons, [here is](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8888126#post8888126) a previous thread on the subject. Suffice it to say it ain’t pretty. ---
**Author:** ![filling\_pages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9bd4f/32.png) [@filling\_pages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filling_pages)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-us-what-determines-my-gender-for-legal-purposes/557130/16 "2010-10-15T15:36:22Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > For the purpose of getting a marriage license in most states. For the purpose of being able to file income tax as married. The so-called “defense of [sic] marriage act” (realy defense against marriage) makes it a serious legal question. Also, let’s say you are in the army and date males. Then if you are legally a female, fine. If you are legally a male, you are toast. Except that the American armed forces won’t take you if you are transsexual and have done anything medically about it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-us-what-determines-my-gender-for-legal-purposes/557130/17 "2010-10-15T15:55:10Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > > [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > > > Officially, the US legal system is supposed to treat all citizens the same, regardless of gender. So what point would there be to any definition of gender for legal purposes? > > For the purpose of getting a marriage license in most states. For the purpose of being able to file income tax as married. . Most states do have a domestic partner law. And, my Bro worked for the IRS for 20 years, never once did he ever even _hear_ of the audit issue being a couple that _lived together as “man and wife”_ being challenged on Filing Status ( assuming they were not legally married to others). It’s just not an issue the IRS gets into. Pretty much, if you say you’re married _and act like it_, the filing status goes unchallenged. Of course, you should consult your tax professional. In most case, it’s a matter of “self identification” unless you want to _change_ your gender on a form/ID. Then it becomes a issue. ---
**Author:** ![filling\_pages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9bd4f/32.png) [@filling\_pages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filling_pages)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-us-what-determines-my-gender-for-legal-purposes/557130/18 "2010-10-15T16:36:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > > > For the purpose of getting a marriage license in most states. For the purpose of being able to file income tax as married. . > > Most states do have a domestic partner law. Now, [this is from wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_the_United_States), so it could be a lie, but I’m only seeing 11 states that have domestic partnership laws. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-us-what-determines-my-gender-for-legal-purposes/557130/19 "2010-10-15T23:07:04Z")
As has been said, it varies from state to state. Here in Pennsylvania, the DMV just changed the law so that sexual reassignment surgery is no longer necessary for change of your legal gender. In some states, even SRS is not recognized and your legal gender simply cannot be changed. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-us-what-determines-my-gender-for-legal-purposes/557130/20 "2010-10-16T00:29:34Z")
> [@filling\_pages](#): > > …Except that the American armed forces won’t take you if you are transsexual and have done anything medically about it. True, but what happens if a servicemember starts dating a transsexual? Is a male soldier violating DADT & the UCMJ if he was sex with a MtF transsexual? What if it’s a female sailor and a MtF transsexual? Would the transexual spouse of an airman be recognized for benifits purposes and be allowed to live on base? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-the-us-what-determines-my-gender-for-legal-purposes/557130.md?page=2)