# In US: Lost Job = Lost Health Insurance? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [April 3, 2020, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-us-lost-job-lost-health-insurance/850932 "2020-04-03T04:03:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-us-lost-job-lost-health-insurance/850932/21 "2020-04-03T20:37:39Z")
As a follow up question, are American insurance companies refusing to pay for Covid treatments by saying it was avoidable or a force majeure (Act of God)? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-us-lost-job-lost-health-insurance/850932/22 "2020-04-03T20:45:36Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > As a follow up question, are American insurance companies refusing to pay for Covid treatments by saying it was avoidable or a force majeure (Act of God)? No. I’ve never heard of that for any disease. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-us-lost-job-lost-health-insurance/850932/23 "2020-04-03T20:51:26Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > As a follow up question, are American insurance companies refusing to pay for Covid treatments by saying it was avoidable or a force majeure (Act of God)? I don’t think you could really apply or justify a _force majeure_ clause to health care coverage in general (although there are major medical policies that will specifically refuse coverage in the case of injuries as a result of risky non-occupational behavior) but there is a lot of speculation that _force majeure_ exceptions may be called out to exempt insurers from paying out on business and mortgage insurance. Since this is pretty much an unprecedented event in terms of scale in a modern economy where this kind of insurance is available, who knows how it will pan out but someone is going to take it in the shorts. [_The National Law Review_: “COVID-19: Force Majeure Event?“](https://www.natlawreview.com/article/covid-19-force-majeure-event) Stranger ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-us-lost-job-lost-health-insurance/850932/24 "2020-04-03T21:23:44Z")
This isn’t a force majeur; it’s a disease, not an asteroid strike or nuclear bomb. But financially speaking, it might as well be either of those. This is something that’s not getting attention now but it will as this continues: the healthcare providers aren’t the only ones who didn’t factor coronavirus into their 2020 healthcare plans; insurance companies didn’t either, and that’s a problem. Anthem, Blue Cross, et al might well be the next AIG. The optics of this, politically, are going to be explosive: health insurers asking for handouts at a time when ordinary people without jobs and without insurance are in massive debt. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-us-lost-job-lost-health-insurance/850932/25 "2020-04-03T21:30:44Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > This isn’t a force majeur; it’s a disease, not an asteroid strike or nuclear bomb. Many _force majeure_ clauses explicitly include epidemics and government-enforced quarantines as “acts of God”. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Mdcastle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/958977/32.png) [@Mdcastle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mdcastle)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-us-lost-job-lost-health-insurance/850932/26 "2020-04-03T23:20:43Z")
Of course Americans realize that healthy people can get sick at any time. That’s why every American has a chance to fulfill their duty to society and buy insurance on the ACA at open enrollment time if they don’t have insurance through the government or their job. The current pandemic will not break the business model. The people losing their jobs now are predominantly part time service workers that aren’t insured right now anyway. Those that are losing their insurance with their job have COBRA or the ACA. Meanwhile insurance companies have figured out that things might cause an increase in claims, that’s why they have investments and reinsurance, and since groups renew throughout the year they can start increasing premiums immediately. Meanwhile there’s a drop in expensive elective surgeries. Finally, costs are going to be limited by the number of hospital beds available and people with Coronvirus either get better (or occasionally die), they don’t last in that state for months and months and years and year filing claims like cancer or congestive heart failure patients. Something like the sickest 5% already take up 50% of U.S. healthcare spending so above average so coronavirus isn’t as big of blip as you might think. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-us-lost-job-lost-health-insurance/850932/27 "2020-04-03T23:27:58Z")
> [@Mdcastle](#): > > Of course Americans realize that healthy people can get sick at any time. That’s why every American has a chance to fulfill their duty to society and buy insurance on the ACA at open enrollment time if they don’t have insurance through the government or their job. After I lost a job at the end of 2017 I tried to sign up for ACA insurance. I even went to a navigator for help. My only income was UI which lasts for 6 months. They told me I made too much each month to quality for medicaid (I was making more than 133% of FPL due to my UI payments) but I made too little on an annual basis to quality for private coverage subsidies since UI runs out after 6 months. So my choice was to spend $400 a month on garbage insurance (pay the full price) or be uninsured. I picked the second option. Its pathetic this is the best we could do with 60 senate democrats. In a working UHC system, the uninsured should be auto enrolled in medicare or medicaid. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-us-lost-job-lost-health-insurance/850932/28 "2020-04-03T23:36:51Z")
There are more than just waiters and bartenders out of work due to the COVID-19 epidemic; essentially anyone in or servicing a service-oriented industry will be impacted, and many cannot afford to pay the total premium to maintain COBRA coverage. No actuarial model accounts for 100% of ICU beds being occupied across the entire country at once. The “drop in expensive elective surgeries” is a drop in the bucket, especially compared to the costs for maintaining a patient in ICU for weeks on end. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-us-lost-job-lost-health-insurance/850932/29 "2020-04-03T23:57:36Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Its pathetic this is the best we could do with 60 senate democrats. Democrats had 60 seats for [only a few months](https://www.outsidethebeltway.com/did-the-democrats-ever-really-have-60-votes-in-the-senate-and-for-how-long/), and congress was in recess for most of that time. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-us-lost-job-lost-health-insurance/850932/30 "2020-04-03T23:58:44Z")
> [@Kovitlac](#): > > Obamacare is extremely affordable if you get anything from the government (and you don’t have to be at the poverty level to get that extra money). If you’re 100% out of work, obviously there’s a problem if you’re not making any money at all. But I was working part-time and paid maybe $40 a month for insurance. Not the greatest insurance ever, but it was something. I have a better job now, but I’m still making only $2000 a month, and I still use Obamacare, as my small company doesn’t provide insurance. I get $400 a month toward insurance. This is true if you’re in one of the “good” states with the medicaid expansion. If you’re not, you’re SOL. See my previous post #12, 2nd paragraph, about people not so fortunate. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2020, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-us-lost-job-lost-health-insurance/850932/31 "2020-04-04T00:17:29Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Its pathetic this is the best we could do with 60 senate democrats. In a working UHC system, the uninsured should be auto enrolled in medicare or medicaid. What’s needed is a cultural shift. You need more than just 60+ senators; you need 60 senators who fear their constituents if they don’t get universal healthcare done. The last financial crisis was a credit freeze and jobs crisis; this feels different. I said it on another thread and I don’t apologize for it: \*\*I hope this breaks the entire goddamn system. \*\* One MAJOR reason the pandemic has gotten this damn bad in the US is because our health system doesn’t give people uniform access to the health system and doesn’t provide uniform results across the system. The GOP mantra of letting the free market and states become mini-laboratories for market innovation and democracies have failed to deliver. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2020, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-us-lost-job-lost-health-insurance/850932/32 "2020-04-04T00:24:46Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Democrats had 60 seats for [only a few months](https://www.outsidethebeltway.com/did-the-democrats-ever-really-have-60-votes-in-the-senate-and-for-how-long/), and congress was in recess for most of that time. Indeed. That Democrats got Obamacare passed and into effect at all was a major achievement. This is what I’m referring to on the politics threads when I point out the difference between select a platform based on nothing more than ideals and one that aims for the ideal but knows opportunities when they seem them and seizes on them. Obama knew that right in the middle of a jobs crisis, when people are unemployed long enough to consider life without employer-sponsored health insurance for a few months, is a good time to pitch expanding healthcare options, but not necessarily a good time to go full-on Bolshevik and promise permanent revolution . This election and the aftermath of this year will provide new opportunities. We need to seize them and know when to cut a deal. I hope that the opportunity that we’re offered is a beleaguered health system in which right-thinking people agree that profit-driven health providers are no match for a pandemic, and that this is dangerous to public health, to our economy, and even to national security. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2020, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-us-lost-job-lost-health-insurance/850932/33 "2020-04-04T00:57:06Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Obama knew that right in the middle of a jobs crisis, when people are unemployed long enough to consider life without employer-sponsored health insurance for a few months, is a good time to pitch expanding healthcare options, but not necessarily a good time to go full-on Bolshevik and promise permanent revolution . > . Who is asking for permanent revolution? A plan like medicare extra for all would’ve been nice. > **[Medicare Extra for All](https://www.americanprogress.org/article/medicare-extra-for-all/)** > > This proposal guarantees the right of all Americans to enroll in the same high-quality plan modeled after the Medicare program. The democrats win in a landslide, and they pass a tepid reform full of loopholes strategically designed to not offend the rich and powerful. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2020, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-us-lost-job-lost-health-insurance/850932/34 "2020-04-04T01:08:06Z")
While the ACA is better than what we had before, it is in no way affordable. Since I purchased insurance from the exchanges, I can give a direct example. As a nonsmoker in my 50s, the absolute cheapest policy available (the one where you pay the first $7500) was over $800 a month. Back before the Medicaid expansion was passed, you started qualifying for subsidies at about $22,000 yearly. If you earned less than $22,000 yearly, you needed to pay the full amount (now that we have the Medicaid expansion, you get free Medicaid under that amount).Yes, it is a crappy loophole, but the ACA was designed to cover those people and the designers didn’t think that states would turn down 90% of the costs of covering low-income people, essentially screwing them over. Now, if you qualify for a subsidy, it is capped at 16% of your income. If you earn $22,000 a year, you have to pay approximately $300 a month for insurance. That is the absolute cheapest you can possibly pay in Virginia. There is no way to get insurance in my area for $40 a month. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2020, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-us-lost-job-lost-health-insurance/850932/35 "2020-04-04T01:51:33Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Who is asking for permanent revolution? A plan like medicare extra for all would’ve been nice. > > [https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/healthcare/reports/2018/02/22/447095/medicare-extra-for-all/](https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/healthcare/reports/2018/02/22/447095/medicare-extra-for-all/) > > The democrats win in a landslide, and they pass a tepid reform full of loopholes strategically designed to not offend the rich and powerful. It wasn’t a landslide. If they had won a landslide, they would have had the votes to pass a friggin public option - they couldn’t even do that. It would’ve been great if Joe Lieberman and Max Baucus had been liberal democrats, but they weren’t - we’re not living in imagination land. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2020, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-us-lost-job-lost-health-insurance/850932/36 "2020-04-04T01:57:53Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > While the ACA is better than what we had before, it is in no way affordable. Since I purchased insurance from the exchanges, I can give a direct example. As a nonsmoker in my 50s, the absolute cheapest policy available (the one where you pay the first $7500) was over $800 a month. Back before the Medicaid expansion was passed, you started qualifying for subsidies at about $22,000 yearly. If you earned less than $22,000 yearly, you needed to pay the full amount (now that we have the Medicaid expansion, you get free Medicaid under that amount).Yes, it is a crappy loophole, but the ACA was designed to cover those people and the designers didn’t think that states would turn down 90% of the costs of covering low-income people, essentially screwing them over. > Now, if you qualify for a subsidy, it is capped at 16% of your income. If you earn $22,000 a year, you have to pay approximately $300 a month for insurance. That is the absolute cheapest you can possibly pay in Virginia. There is no way to get insurance in my area for $40 a month. I agree it could be more affordable and it the premiums go up every year b/c ACA ultimately still trusted the insurance companies to act with some good faith - that little delusion was nice while it lasted. I think the only way we’ll ever change the system is to have it collapse. This might do the trick. I hope it does. I know it’s cruel in the moment to want such a thing, but the reason we’re in this mess is b/c people never think about health insurance and how fucked up the system is, and will even defend it out of sheer ignorance because they’ve never had to use it for something serious. Maybe this is a game changer, but I won’t hold my breath. The current system needs to completely implode. ---
**Author:** ![Skypist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skypist/32/169_2.png) [@Skypist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skypist)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2020, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-us-lost-job-lost-health-insurance/850932/37 "2020-04-04T09:57:07Z")
> [@Mdcastle](#): > > Of course Americans realize that healthy people can get sick at any time. That’s why every American has a chance to fulfill their duty to society and buy insurance on the ACA at open enrollment time if they don’t have insurance through the government or their job. Well how are they going to pay a premium through the ACA when their income is $0? And if they’re in states without the Medicaid expansion, they’re even more screwed. Plenty of people in this country don’t seem to understand how important health insurance is for everyone or even how it works, or else they are lying that they don’t. Americans seem to buy the argument that the uninsured can just go to the emergency room if they need care. They conveniently forget that an ER bill will be crazy expensive and someone with an ongoing chronic condition can’t get followup care there. > [@Mdcastle](#): > > The current pandemic will not break the business model. The people losing their jobs now are predominantly part time service workers that aren’t insured right now anyway. Those that are losing their insurance with their job have COBRA or the ACA. Meanwhile insurance companies have figured out that things might cause an increase in claims, that’s why they have investments and reinsurance, and since groups renew throughout the year they can start increasing premiums immediately. Meanwhile there’s a drop in expensive elective surgeries. Actually that “drop in expensive elective surgeries” is causing some of the layoffs. > [@](#): > > “Elective surgeries are the cornerstone of our hospital system’s operating model — and the negative impact due to the cancellations of these procedures cannot be overstated. In addition, patients are understandably cautious and choosing to defer any non-emergency treatments or routine visits until this crisis has passed.” > **[COVID-19 Hits Some Health Care Workers With Pay Cuts And Layoffs](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/04/02/826232423/covid-19-hits-some-health-care-workers-with-pay-cuts-and-layoffs)** > > As the health industry focuses on COVID-19, there has been a big drop in nonurgent visits for primary care and specialty care. Medical practices are being forced to furlough or lay off staff. There’s also this report: > [@](#): > > As the coronavirus pandemic overturns the U.S. economy, the shock waves are being felt in industries well beyond the hardest-hit: travel, hospitality and restaurants. White-collar workers — tech, marketing and professional employees among them — are facing layoffs, pay cuts and furloughs as their companies sharply curtail operations or suspend them altogether. > **[The latest sign the economic downturn is intensifying: White-collar workers...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/03/28/white-collar-coronavirus-recession/)** > > Service sector jobs got slammed early in the coronavirus crisis, now it's tech, legal and other professionals reporting layoffs, pay cuts and furloughs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-us-lost-job-lost-health-insurance/850932.md?page=1)