# In What Circumstances Could A 9yo Kill Another 9yo With Fists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 29, 2019, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-circumstances-could-a-9yo-kill-another-9yo-with-fists/831713 "2019-03-29T14:46:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-circumstances-could-a-9yo-kill-another-9yo-with-fists/831713/1 "2019-03-29T14:46:01Z")
[Raniya Wright](https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/29/us/student-death-classroom-fight-south-carolina/index.html) TLDR: a 5th grader died following a fistfight with another 5th grader, no weapons are believed to have been used. I am simply not seeing how a nine-year-old can summon the strength necessary to kill another nine-year-old without a weapon. I’m a grown-ass man, and from where I sit it would still require multiple, repeated blows to her head for me to kill her. I suppose her killer could have strangled her, but if I remember anything from high school health class it takes 3-6 minutes or more to die of hypoxia, and the fight isn’t believed to have lasted that long. So what could have happened? An extremely lucky shot to just the right place at just the right time? Her killer could theoretically have struck her in the head enough times to kill her? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-circumstances-could-a-9yo-kill-another-9yo-with-fists/831713/2 "2019-03-29T15:00:39Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > I’m a grown-ass man, and from where I sit it would still require multiple, repeated blows to her head for me to kill her. Nope. Men kill other men with one punch, so you can certainly kill a 9 y.o. with one. > **[One-punch deaths: How lives are devastated by a single blow](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-38992393)** > > How do one-punch deaths happen and can anything be done to stop them? Some deaths occur directly from the punch, others from what the head hits right after. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-circumstances-could-a-9yo-kill-another-9yo-with-fists/831713/3 "2019-03-29T15:07:35Z")
People die from falling to the ground and hitting their head, so any punch sufficient to knock someone to the ground could be a lethal blow. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-circumstances-could-a-9yo-kill-another-9yo-with-fists/831713/4 "2019-03-29T15:27:49Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > So what could have happened? An extremely lucky shot to just the right place at just the right time? Her killer could theoretically have struck her in the head enough times to kill her? There’s no indication in that story that she died from a punch. She could have died from hitting her head on a desk, or on the ground. It doesn’t even say that she died from a head injury (although she was unconscious when in the nurse’s station). She could have had some kind of internal injury. It’s certainly possible to kill someone with an (un)lucky shot, but we simply don’t have enough information to answer this question about this specific case. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-circumstances-could-a-9yo-kill-another-9yo-with-fists/831713/5 "2019-03-29T15:48:25Z")
Or the other kid could have bit or scratched and drawn blood, and the victim bled out. Or the wound could have gotten infected (9-year-olds are known to occasionally have teeth and fingernails that aren’t entirely sterile), and the infection got out of control. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-circumstances-could-a-9yo-kill-another-9yo-with-fists/831713/6 "2019-03-29T15:59:22Z")
If we set aside the question of what actually happened in this one incident (which we don’t know) and focus on the question in the OP subject line, I’ll just add that movies and TV have made us believe that you can have fights with multiple bare-fisted punches to the head that go on for minutes, when in fact that just doesn’t happen. We have this misconception about how damaging a punch to the head can be. (See also the “hit him hard enough to just knock him out for a while” trope.) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-circumstances-could-a-9yo-kill-another-9yo-with-fists/831713/7 "2019-03-29T16:00:15Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > People die from falling to the ground and hitting their head, so any punch sufficient to knock someone to the ground could be a lethal blow. [Here’s an example from last year of exactly that](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/video-released-of-bar-fight-that-killed-mesa-football-coach/vp-AAyWT4g). One punch, guy goes down, hits his head, and dies (there is a video where you see the punch, but nothing more.) My friend’s brother was also killed in a bar in this manner. Land funny or hit your head wrong, and lots can go wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-circumstances-could-a-9yo-kill-another-9yo-with-fists/831713/8 "2019-03-29T17:21:24Z")
I misread the thread title as " In What Circumstances Could A 9yo Kill Another 9yo With Fish". That scenario is unlikely, but certainly the victim could wind up with a bad haddock. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-circumstances-could-a-9yo-kill-another-9yo-with-fists/831713/9 "2019-03-29T17:22:48Z")
In fact, one thing I read about “tv tropes” said that at least for adults - a man cannot break another’s skull with his bare fists, it would break his knuckles first. However, add boxing gloves and there’s enough momentum for a concussion without injury to the hands. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-circumstances-could-a-9yo-kill-another-9yo-with-fists/831713/10 "2019-03-29T17:24:30Z")
I’ve heard of people dying after a baseball hits them in the chest, and googling, this is called [commotio cordis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commotio_cordis). So it’s _possible_ the same thing happened with a punch. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-circumstances-could-a-9yo-kill-another-9yo-with-fists/831713/11 "2019-03-29T17:31:15Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > If we set aside the question of what actually happened in this one incident (which we don’t know) and focus on the question in the OP subject line, I’ll just add that movies and TV have made us believe that you can have fights with multiple bare-fisted punches to the head that go on for minutes, when in fact that just doesn’t happen. We have this misconception about how damaging a punch to the head can be. (See also the “hit him hard enough to just knock him out for a while” trope.) Yeah, I am frequently annoyed when writers or directors expect us to believe that a given martial artist can strike hard enough to crush bricks with their bare hand but then they engage in the above-mentioned minutes-long battle hitting their opponent scores of times and yet the opponent keeps fighting because of “fierce determination.” In real life they would be lying on the ground because of “subdural hematoma.” Sometimes I wonder why they keep bothering to hit each other if the effects are so negligible. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-circumstances-could-a-9yo-kill-another-9yo-with-fists/831713/12 "2019-03-29T17:37:30Z")
It is possible to put someone’s heart into fibrillation with a punch or kick that is timed exactly right. Several baseball players have died from the ball hitting them in the heart at the wrong time. There was a famous case of this happening from a kick in the late 1980s called the Karate Killer, or Karate Kid murder. However, head trauma, either caused by the head hitting something while falling or being bashed into the ground is much more likely. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-circumstances-could-a-9yo-kill-another-9yo-with-fists/831713/13 "2019-03-29T17:38:09Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Yeah, I am frequently annoyed when writers or directors expect us to believe that a given martial artist can strike hard enough to crush bricks with their bare hand but then they engage in the above-mentioned minutes-long battle hitting their opponent scores of times and yet the opponent keeps fighting because of “fierce determination.” In real life they would be lying on the ground because of “subdural hematoma.” On the other hand, I watch UFC fights every once in awhile and can’t believe they’re still up and fighting. OK, it ain’t bare knuckles, but I’m sure one UFC punch and I’d be laying dead on the ground. Clearly, there’s a range of damage the human body can take, depending on conditioning and training. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-circumstances-could-a-9yo-kill-another-9yo-with-fists/831713/14 "2019-03-29T17:42:51Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Yeah, I am frequently annoyed when writers or directors expect us to believe that a given martial artist can strike hard enough to crush bricks with their bare hand but then they engage in the above-mentioned minutes-long battle hitting their opponent scores of times and yet the opponent keeps fighting because of “fierce determination.” In real life they would be lying on the ground because of “subdural hematoma.” > > Sometimes I wonder why they keep bothering to hit each other if the effects are so negligible. You don’t crush the bricks; you break them in half. I’ve done it myself. As for hitting people, they do get knocked out occasionally, so a punch or kick does not always have “negligible effect”. One’s opponent is presumably trying to defend against your blows, though, which is how fights can go on for several minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-circumstances-could-a-9yo-kill-another-9yo-with-fists/831713/15 "2019-03-29T17:48:53Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Or the other kid could have bit or scratched and drawn blood, and the victim bled out. Or the wound could have gotten infected (9-year-olds are known to occasionally have teeth and fingernails that aren’t entirely sterile), and the infection got out of control. Since the victim died after two days in medical care (first at the nursing station at the school, then at a hospital, finally at the Medical University of South Carolina), they certainly would have been able to control bleeding and provide a transfusion in that time. While rapid death due to sepsis is possible, one presumes any wounds would have been cleaned immediately and it also seems unlikely to have happened so quickly while under medical care. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-circumstances-could-a-9yo-kill-another-9yo-with-fists/831713/16 "2019-03-29T18:50:47Z")
It doesn’t even say in the article that she was one of the kids fighting. She could have been knocked over onto something sharp as collateral damage from a brawl between two other kids. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-circumstances-could-a-9yo-kill-another-9yo-with-fists/831713/17 "2019-03-29T18:56:38Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > In fact, one thing I read about “tv tropes” said that at least for adults - a man cannot break another’s skull with his bare fists, it would break his knuckles first. However, add boxing gloves and there’s enough momentum for a concussion without injury to the hands. You can do a lot of damage without breaking the skull. > [@DPRK](#): > > You don’t crush the bricks; you break them in half. I’ve done it myself. As for hitting people, they do get knocked out occasionally, so a punch or kick does not always have “negligible effect”. One’s opponent is presumably trying to defend against your blows, though, which is how fights can go on for several minutes. A fight can go on for minutes but not one that involves a head blow every couple of seconds. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-circumstances-could-a-9yo-kill-another-9yo-with-fists/831713/18 "2019-03-29T19:02:58Z")
Well a fifth grader who is only 9 years old (particularly this late in the year) must be quite advanced. Most students are 11 or nearly so when finishing 5th grade, so this advanced student has probably studied all kinds of esoteric killing methods. I was tempted to put a smiley here, but decided not to do so in a topic about killing. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-circumstances-could-a-9yo-kill-another-9yo-with-fists/831713/19 "2019-03-29T20:30:00Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > . . . at least for adults - a man cannot break another’s skull with his bare fists, it would break his knuckles first. . . . [Not true.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_Washington) > [@](#): > > Kermit Alan Washington (born September 17, 1951) is an American former professional basketball player. Washington is best remembered for punching opposing player Rudy Tomjanovich during an on-court fight in 1977.[1] His punch nearly killed Tomjanovich, and resulted in severe medical problems that ultimately ended Tomjanovich’s playing career. > . . . > > Washington hit Tomjanovich with a short right-hand punch. The blow, which took Tomjanovich by surprise, fractured his face about one-third of an inch (8 mm) away from his skull and left Tomjanovich unconscious in a pool of blood in the middle of the arena… . .besides having the bone structure of his face detached from his skull and suffering a cerebral concussion and broken jaw and nose, he was leaking blood and spinal fluid into his skull capsule. His skull was fractured in such a way that Tomjanovich could taste the spinal fluid leaking into his mouth. watch at your own discretion [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvwRFNkqn-U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvwRFNkqn-U) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-circumstances-could-a-9yo-kill-another-9yo-with-fists/831713/20 "2019-03-29T20:34:11Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Yeah, I am frequently annoyed when writers or directors expect us to believe that a given martial artist can strike hard enough to crush bricks with their bare hand but then they engage in the above-mentioned minutes-long battle hitting their opponent scores of times and yet the opponent keeps fighting because of “fierce determination.” In real life they would be lying on the ground because of “subdural hematoma.” > > Sometimes I wonder why they keep bothering to hit each other if the effects are so negligible. Breaking bricks is very much different from hitting a real person. Bricks are flat, stationary, well-braced, and the person breaking has all the time he needs to wind up and aim precisely. Real people are not. There are also various ways to doctor the brick to make it easy to break. Breaking things is fun, impressive, and builds confidence, but it has relatively little to do with combat. Regards, Shodan [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-circumstances-could-a-9yo-kill-another-9yo-with-fists/831713.md?page=2)