# In what (fictional) tactical scenerios would a doubled-barreled shotgun be superior? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 22, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267 "2009-08-22T01:41:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267/41 "2009-08-23T07:43:53Z")
Some of them were also armed with the M3 “grease gun” submachine gun. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267/42 "2009-08-23T07:50:44Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Some of them were also armed with the M3 “grease gun” submachine gun. True, but that was later, after the film’s period. Incidentally, my Dad thought the “grease gun” was a piece of crap. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267/43 "2009-08-23T08:39:24Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Let’s say you’re driving a tankload of “juice” across the Australian outback when you are set upon by a post-apocalyptic motorcyle mob. And you only have one hand free to reload… Since pump-action and self-loading shotguns are heavily restricted here, you’re just going to have to make do with a double-barrelled shotgun, I’m afraid. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267/44 "2009-08-23T13:30:08Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > What personal weapons were issued to WWII tank crews? Actually, none to American crews. Battalion officers were issued .45 automatics, but other crewmen had to use the weapons that came with the vehicle. Early in the war that would’ve been the Thompson, after '44, the M3. Tankers were also expected to use the .30 cal from the vehicle and a tripod was provided. [Interesting cite I found by googling “What personal weapons were issued to WWII tank crews?”](http://books.google.com.au/books?id=GDqxBStx4kYC&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=What+personal+weapons+were+issued+to+WWII+tank+crews%3F&source=bl&ots=qJmc0Z6ls2&sig=LqBlGewV26ZpZYE27F4N9f0VBpQ&hl=en&ei=Z0KRSvjQKommtAOP6f3bDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267/45 "2009-08-23T14:18:12Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Didn’t John Wayne play a character with a double barrel shotgun, as arm? In [Eldorado](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061619/) he gave a sawed off shotgun to the character played by James Caan, who was no marksman. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267/46 "2009-08-23T15:05:36Z")
Wayne also wielded a shotgun as U.S. Marshal Rooster Cogburn: [Rooster Cogburn (character) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooster_Cogburn_%28character%29) “Grease guns” were issued to U.S. tankers as late as 1956, when my dad was a sergeant in West Germany with the 8th Infantry Division, which included armored units. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267/47 "2009-08-23T15:23:43Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Wayne also wielded a shotgun as U.S. Marshal Rooster Cogburn: I recall the Navy Colt and Winchester from horseback, _Fill your hand, you son of a bitch!_ but not a shotgun. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267/48 "2009-08-24T07:12:44Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Wayne also wielded a shotgun as U.S. Marshal Rooster Cogburn: [Rooster Cogburn (character) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooster_Cogburn_%28character%29) > > “Grease guns” were issued to U.S. tankers as late as 1956, when my dad was a sergeant in West Germany with the 8th Infantry Division, which included armored units. They were still being issued during the First Gulf War, according to at least one former soldier I’ve spoken to. He mentioned truck drivers having them and said there were still a few on issue to armoured vehicle crew members as well. ---
**Author:** ![wierdaaron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267/49 "2009-08-24T08:02:30Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > I don’t know, there are a lot of sinfgle shot AK-47’s in Brown Boxes from the Orient that were sold as varmint rifles. These are slightly different from the Russian version… Marmot Killers for Chinese Nomads. Really cheap and there was a glut of them in the early nineties. My guess would be that the faux AKs appeal mainly to the “gansta” types (the people who think an AK is the only type of machine gun in the universe because of its frequent mention in rap music), whereas the AR-15 faux M16s appeal more to the average God-Bless-America gun nut, what with its use by US military. Oh, and I’ve only heard speculation regarding it, but what I’ve heard is that the AR-15s are “relatively” easy to mod into full-auto, whereas with the AKs you’ve got to replace so many parts you’re basically building a new gun. Ergo, modded AR-15s would be easier to find in Zombie world (possibly in someone’s cold, dead hands) than a modded AK. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267/50 "2009-08-24T08:10:29Z")
According to Wikipedia the M3 “grease gun” was first issued in December of 1942, so I’d imagine that it would have been in general use before '45, along with the Thompson gun. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267/51 "2009-08-24T08:22:16Z")
> [@wierdaaron](#): > > My guess would be that the faux AKs appeal mainly to the “gansta” types (the people who think an AK is the only type of machine gun in the universe because of its frequent mention in rap music), whereas the AR-15 faux M16s appeal more to the average God-Bless-America gun nut, what with its use by US military. I’m not sure what “single-shot AK-47s” he was talking about. There are indeed semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles made, mostly assembled from parts originally belonging to genuine select-fire AK rifles from former East Bloc countries, sold by many US companies such as Century Arms, Arsenal and others. There may be single-shot AK-type rifles designed for training or for youths but I’m not aware of any such thing. Chinese semi-auto AKs (made by the Norinco company) are pretty rare and generally expensive. The cheaper ones are made in Romania and Yugoslavia. I don’t think the “gangsta” types generally have any understanding of rifles, or any other type of firearm, beyond the most superficial kind of knowledge. The “gangsta” demographic does not really overlap with the type of people who buy and use firearms legally. Most people who like AKs like a lot of other rifles too, and most people who buy them do so because they are extremely reliable and they fire the cheapest sort of center-fire cartridge that exists. (I think 5.45x39 is cheaper than 7.62x39 - there are also AK-type rifles chambered in the former.) The AR-15 appeals to pretty much the same group who also buy AK-type rifles. The AR-15 is far more versatile and can be modified in hundreds of different ways. I really can’t comment on modifying these rifles to fire in full-auto other than to say, don’t do it unless you feel like going to Federal prison. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267/52 "2009-08-24T08:27:17Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > According to Wikipedia the M3 “grease gun” was first issued in December of 1942, so I’d imagine that it would have been in general use before '45, along with the Thompson gun. That’s right, I got the cite wrong. It actually says _by_ 1944 the M3 was the most common type of weapon issued to tanks for crew self defence. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267/53 "2009-08-24T15:38:27Z")
From Wiki: “…The M3 and M3A1 were mostly withdrawn from U.S. service in 1957; however they continued to be used until the mid 1990s by armored vehicle crews and truck drivers. For example, during the Gulf War of 1991, drivers of the 19th Engineer Battalion, attached to the 1st Armored Division, were deployed with the M3A1.” Filipino special forces still use them, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267/54 "2009-08-24T20:27:20Z")
**Absconditus** said: > [@](#): > > 1. When facing someone who is unarmed and has to get in close to attack (a smug ninja, for example, or a zombie). A _smug_ ninja, because a not smug one will sneak up on you, right? I would accept a double barreled shotgun when facing _one_ sword-wielding ninja or standard zombie. Redundancy being nice. But if there’s a hoard of them coming, I’d prefer something with a higher capacity. Like a plasma rifle. **Argent Towers** said: > [@](#): > > I really can’t comment on modifying these rifles to fire in full-auto other than to say, don’t do it unless you feel like going to Federal prison. I’m sure in the event of a Zombie-pocalypse, the federal gun laws will be largely unenforced. So one can study up on techniques without actually performing said acts until the situation arises. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Yogurt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/f0a364/32.png) [@Yogurt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yogurt)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267/55 "2009-08-25T01:28:29Z")
Don’t forget Omar Little and his use of a double barreled shotgun in Season 1 of the Wire. He often uses it to fire one shot at an enemy to compel compliance from another. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267/56 "2009-08-25T19:52:31Z")
I asked my dad about the M3 submachine gun, and here’s what he wrote: "Yes, I remember it well, we were issued these for use on tanks, along with carbines and 45 caliber pistols. We practice-fired all three of them on the firing ranges, but fortunately never had to fire them in anger (the 1956 Hungarian Revolt was the closest I ever came to it, when we were on maneuvers on the border of West Germany and Austria, and knew that if Eisenhower decided to intervene, we were the closest U.S. tank battalion to Hungary, so we’d be the lead tank unit to be sent to battle the feared Russian tanks). "All three worked well on tanks because they were small and easy to store in the nooks and crannies available inside. We called it a “grease gun” for the reason listed in the Wiki article. “It was pretty primitive in manufacture, which was good because that meant it didn’t jam too often, but its accuracy was so-so, because of its short barrel and loose fitting parts. Strictly best used for close-in combat, if you had an open hatch and grunts were trying to jump up onto the tank. It was not good for long-range shots, like the standard M-1 rifle, which we never were issued, being tankers, not infantry.” ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267/57 "2009-08-25T21:37:54Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I’m not sure what “single-shot AK-47s” he was talking about. There are indeed semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles made, mostly assembled from parts originally belonging to genuine select-fire AK rifles from former East Bloc countries, sold by many US companies such as Century Arms, Arsenal and others. There may be single-shot AK-type rifles designed for training or for youths but I’m not aware of any such thing. > > Chinese semi-auto AKs (made by the Norinco company) are pretty rare and generally expensive. The cheaper ones are made in Romania and Yugoslavia. > > I don’t think the “gangsta” types generally have any understanding of rifles, or any other type of firearm, beyond the most superficial kind of knowledge. The “gangsta” demographic does not really overlap with the type of people who buy and use firearms legally. Most people who like AKs like a lot of other rifles too, and most people who buy them do so because they are extremely reliable and they fire the cheapest sort of center-fire cartridge that exists. (I think 5.45x39 is cheaper than 7.62x39 - there are also AK-type rifles chambered in the former.) The AR-15 appeals to pretty much the same group who also buy AK-type rifles. The AR-15 is far more versatile and can be modified in hundreds of different ways. > I really can’t comment on modifying these rifles to fire in full-auto other than to say, don’t do it unless you feel like going to Federal prison. I’m not sure what these particular foreign licensed Ak-47’s that I saw a lot of in the late eighties and early nineties were, nor whether they were pre or post ban? But I considered buying one for around $200.00 dollars around '90. Maybe it was the Norinco or Mak models, maybe a hunter version? What stood out was that it was in a hinged drab green wooden carrying case with, I think, a Red Star stenciled on it (I could be misremembering that part). It came with a cleaning kit, a couple of small capacity magazines (5 rd maybe?), a bipod, and possibly a bayonet (not sure about that part either?). It struck me as military surplus…And yes, it was a single shot selection, only (semiauto). ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267/58 "2009-08-25T21:58:44Z")
I think the gun dealer told me that it was chinese. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267/59 "2009-08-26T07:28:28Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > It struck me as military surplus…And yes, it was a single shot selection, only (semiauto). A minor nitpick, but “single shot” and “semi-auto” are entirely different things. “Single-shot” means the gun holds one round, and has to be reloaded after each shot (like a Remington Rolling Block rifle or a Martini-Henry, for example), whereas a “semi-automatic” firearm holds multiple rounds in the magazine but will only fire and reload itself once for each time the trigger is pulled (Like an L1A1 SLR or Ruger Mini-14, for example). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267/60 "2009-08-26T18:08:22Z")
> [@ghardester](#): > > So it’s just a 2 round shotgun. Then you are out of ammo and have to hope you have killed or scared the competiion long enough to allow you to reload. Accuracy is limited to about the range inside your average living room. Not a good choice for outside at any distance you can’t spit. IIRC, Frederick Forsyth sets up a tactical scenario for the SAS in The Fourth Protocol where a double-barreled shotgun is the weapon of choice: a small squad of operatives have snuck up to the bad guy’s door, and Soldiers #1 and #2 have their regular sidearms out while Soldier #3 takes careful aim for a quick BOOM-hah-BOOM as a solid slug blasts through each hinge; the second shot hits right as Solider #4 swings a sledgehammer at what’s left of the door, such that Soldier #1 and Soldier #2 smoothly dash in ready to fire while #3 and #4 – who’ve now dropped shotgun and sledgehammer – quick-draw their sidearms and follow suit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-fictional-tactical-scenerios-would-a-doubled-barreled-shotgun-be-superior/507267.md?page=4)