# In what ways are men discriminated against? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 8, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184 "2012-04-08T16:38:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/321 "2012-04-13T00:44:25Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > So if you didn’t want to have a discussion about it, why are you here? If you just wanted to troll the thread, you should have said so earlier so I didn’t waste my time thinking you had a point to clarify or actually wanted to engage in discussion about the issue. The definition of sexism isn’t an intermediate goal of feminism. It just happened to be a discussion in this thread because someone brought it up. What a waste of time you are. I am having a discussion. Unfortunately, it is a discussion with a convert which is always difficult no matter if the subject is conspiracy theories or religious fundamentalism. I don’t think we are going to make any progress on this one so I will just chalk this one up to another causality of tunnel-vision dogma. ---
**Author:** ![Myrnalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@Myrnalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrnalene)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/322 "2012-04-13T00:49:45Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > If feminists get to complain about a 1940s workplace, I get to complain about a 1940s draft. Or we both don’t. Gotta be fair. :rolleyes: We don’t have to reach back to the “1940s” to find examples of gender inequality in the workplace. [It’s still](http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/03/29/455111/lobbying-firms-pay-women-leaders-1-million-less-than-men/) [happening](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-02/female-cfos-in-u-s-paid-16-less-than-men-study-finds.html) [right now.](http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/03/19/447514/gender-pay-gap-is-largest-on-wall-street/) > [@rogerbox](#): > > If men are not allowed to comment on ways in which they are discriminated against in the USA, why are discussions of anti-female discrimination in the USA allowed without people talking about how much they should cry for the poor American woman who has it better than well over 80% of the planet (including men)? I’m seeing a double standard. No one said men are “not allowed” to comment on the ways in which they are discriminated against. It’s just that many of the examples given in this thread have either been specious or are actually the direct result of a societal structure that favors men. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/323 "2012-04-13T00:53:26Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I am having a discussion. Unfortunately, it is a discussion with a convert which is always difficult no matter if the subject is conspiracy theories or religious fundamentalism. I don’t think we are going to make any progress on this one so I will just chalk this one up to another causality of tunnel-vision dogma. Right. You do that. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/324 "2012-04-13T01:13:51Z")
> [@Myrnalene](#): > > No one said men are “not allowed” to comment on the ways in which they are discriminated against. It’s just that many of the examples given in this thread have either been specious or are actually the direct result of a societal structure that favors men. What do you think calling someone a crybaby is if it’s not to bully that person into shutting up about their complaint? I am not saying that calling someone a crybaby is never valid (and I’m sure I’ve done it recently), I am saying that it is really ridiculous for the people in this thread who I presume are Americans, to call American men crybabies because they have it so good, when by global standards American women have no room to complain either. My stance is that all Americans have it ridiculously good on the global level, but that we can keep making things better and better…overall I think gender roles and judging people for what they do based on their gender is bad either way, but then you have posters like **even sven** who are perfectly fine with gender roles when it benefits them, but heaven forbid one works against them and they will be shouting to the rafters. The argument that American men have it so good they should STFU about their gripes being discriminated against doesn’t fly when they are coming from an American woman IMO. As well as, the OP was asking for examples and justifications, so I don’t even see how “BUT WOMEN HAVE IT WORSE” is even on topic (though I would agree I would rather be a man than a woman in most instances). The people making sarcastic “Oh woa is me for being a man ;\_;” types are trying to stifle what could be an interesting discussion that could open up eyes for all sides. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/325 "2012-04-13T01:19:29Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > What do you think calling someone a crybaby is if it’s not to bully that person into shutting up about their complaint? I am not saying that calling someone a crybaby is never valid (and I’m sure I’ve done it recently), I am saying that it is really ridiculous for the people in this thread who I presume are Americans, to call American men crybabies because they have it so good, when by global standards American women have no room to complain either. The difference is that American women can still look at American _men_ and see how much better things could be for them. American men can’t look at anyone and see how much more opportunity they could have. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/326 "2012-04-13T01:22:25Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > People who actually study and discuss racism in an academic way DO say that whites can’t experience racism. > > I think this is turning into pointless nitpickery. These words can mean different things depending on who’s using them. Just like the word “theory” means different things depending on whether you are using the word in a scientific context. > > People who study sexism and racism use those words in a different way than the general populace does. Men can experience sex based discrimination, but they cannot experience sexism by that definition. I don’t really understand why this bothers people so much; there are lots of words used in an academic context that have different meanings then they do for laymen. The thing is, then, in a rough-and-tumble discussion board, where rigorous academic standards are not the norm, it would be foolish for anyone to suddenly up and apply those standards, saying, “No, you didn’t suffer sexism, you only suffered sexual discrimination.” That’s like sailboat purists insisting that the sheets and halliards are not “ropes.” The hell they aren’t! Those are ropes. I know one when I see one. Since I’m not currently in a sailboat crew, I will not have a lot of patience with someone who makes a point of correcting me. Keep it in its context. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/327 "2012-04-13T01:49:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > American men can’t look at anyone and see how much more opportunity they could have. If by “opportunity” you mean “college graduate rates” then that’s certainly not true. If you mean by “the opportunity to not kill yourself” it is also not true. Anywho, I don’t have a lot of sympathy for the 2nd most privleged group in history arguably, complaining about the complaints of the first most privleged group in history. Especially from those who don’t actually want true equality between the sexes like myself. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/328 "2012-04-13T01:58:52Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I too failed to follow some of the logic. _Quelle suprise!_ > [@Shagnasty](#): > > What about men who are deemed inappropriate for some jobs like elementary school teachers or some types of medical jobs because we are all secretly perves or something? No-one in this thread has demonstrated that this is actually the case. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/329 "2012-04-13T02:07:09Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > _Quelle suprise!_ No-one in this thread has demonstrated that this is actually the case. Nobody has ever proven what gravity is either yet no intelligent person would deny it exists. I was once interested in Clinical psychology as a profession and started down that path academically. There was a question and answer session with a notable female clinical psychologist at my college that I wanted to attend. I was refused at the door because I was male and it was female only by her request. Is one example good enough for you or do we need millions of examples? How many examples of blatant discrimination is too many? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/330 "2012-04-13T02:11:05Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Nobody has ever proven what gravity is either yet no intelligent person would deny it exists. Yeah, that’s the level of equivalency we’re talking about here. :rolleyes: > [@Shagnasty](#): > > I was once interested in Clinical psychology as a profession and started down that path academically. There was a question and answer session with a notable female clinical psychologist at my college that I wanted to attend. I was refused at the door because I was male and it was female only by her request. Is one example good enough for you or do we need millions of examples? How many examples of blatant discrimination is too many? You are absolutely hilarious. Your example was about: > [@](#): > > …men who are deemed inappropriate for some jobs like elementary school teachers or some types of medical jobs because we are all secretly perves or something? Even if i believe your anecdote, it in no way supports the actual assertion that you made. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/331 "2012-04-13T03:35:31Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > People who actually study and discuss racism in an academic way DO say that whites can’t experience racism. 1. All of them? You mean I can’t find anyone studying sexism who’d claim otherwise? Really? Wanna put that to the test? 2. You’re confusing the concept of a term of art with a definition. “Sexism” means discrimination on the basis of gender, whether against man or woman. It just does; that is what the word means to almost everyone in the English-speaking world. If you don’t like it, take up another language. It is certainly fine for “sexism” to take on a distinct meaning as a term of art on a particular discipline, much the same way that “tag” means something different to a comedian than it does to you. In the context of comedy, “tag” means a punchline that immediately follows another puncline built on the same premise; it has a very specific meaning when discussing comedy. But in any context that is NOT the context of professional comedy, “tag” has many other valid meanings, and it would be frankly pretty dumb for a comedian to insist that the term of art definition is the only one. In my profession, “corrective action” is an extremely specific term of art that has a very carefully constructed definition. If you said (for whatever reason) that you had a flat tire but “no problem, I knew the right corrective action, I put the spare on,” that’s a perfectly fine thing to say - even though, in fact, in my profession, tat would be a misuse of that term of art because that isn’t a “corrective action.” It’s a “nonconformance disposition.” But in common English, your terminology is fine. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/332 "2012-04-13T09:03:33Z")
> [@AqualungBats5th](#): > > Why is it that people who complain that selective service is wrong because it only drafts men and not women (and don’t get me wrong, it is. I’m not arguing that.) never seem to want to acknowledge that this whole structure came about because of the general attitude that women are too weak to serve, both physically and mentally. You guys frame this as if this imbalance exists because of a bias _against men_. It doesn’t. Everything that’s wrong with feminism in a nutshell: men are to be enslaved and killed, and that’s evidences of bias against women. > [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > But if the example in question is the draft, an institution implemented by men directed at men at the exclusion of women because they were perceived to be too weak physically and mentally for military service, I have a very hard time accepting this as demonstrative of systematic gender discrimination that negatively impacts men based on any perception of men as the weaker or inferior gender. Not all unfairness is discrimination. The draft in America was instituted by a democratically elected government, in a country with more female voters than male voters. Rather, women were seen as too valuable to be sacrificed in combat, as is a common argument against women in combat today. I’m not sure I’ve heard any modern generals or others argue that women aren’t good enough for combat, it tends to be that they will disrupt unit cohesion or are too valuable to risk. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/333 "2012-04-13T09:11:09Z")
To momentarily address the OP, an example of discrimination against male persons: according to this [website](http://www.in-gender.com/XYU/Gender-Preference/) sex selection of children based on sorting sperm is overwhelmingly used to select for girls, and demand for adoption is much stronger for girls than for boys. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/334 "2012-04-13T09:37:00Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Your example was about:Even if i believe your anecdote, it in no way supports the actual assertion that you made. Is it an assertation that _really_ needs supporting, though? Personally I would consider it common knowledge that there are certain jobs men will, at best, be highly unlikely to get if there’s a female candidate who’s even close to similarly qualified. To be fair, a lot of those jobs are things most men probably wouldn’t want to do anyway, but I also feel the same principle (with reversed genders) is true of jobs that occasionally become the subject of media beat-ups about why there aren’t more female brickies or diesel mechanics. Also, I believe it’s possible for discrimination to exist at a localised level but not necessarily across the board. The dental hygienist example used before is a good example of this, I think - across the board, there are almost certainly an appreciable number of male dental hygienists. But that’s no help if you’re a man looking for a dental hygienist’s job in Pleasantville, where the prevailing attitude (and subsequent practical reality) is that it’s a Job For Women Only. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/335 "2012-04-13T10:18:42Z")
Another example for the OP: physical abuse of children. Firstly [corporal punishment is more commonly administered to male children](http://www.nospank.net/d-hill.htm), sometimes [legally limited to only being used on boys](http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/1290082-should-corporal-punishment-gender-specific.html), which is again true of [the poor and other disadvantaged groups](http://plan-international.org/learnwithoutfear/the-campaign/corporal-punishment), and obviously not girls. And, of course, most teachers are female, as are most perpetrators of the physical and psychological abuse and neglect of children. The Spanish government has discussed differential rates of income tax, although I’m not aware of them being implemented as of yet despite support from both major parties. Obviously with lower rates for women. The UK has proposed shutting down women’s prisons because they want to not imprison women, which [has happened](http://www.glennsacks.com/enewsletters/enews_12_24_07.htm) in some places. Female teachers also tend to award [lower marks](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/female-teachers-accused-of-giving-boys-lower-marks-6943937.html) to boys. Even after the system of education has been [consciously made more female-friendly](http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-governance-feminism/fem-education-down-under/), resulting in the clearl majority of university entrants and those awarded Bachelors and Masters degrees, and as a result those going into the law, medicine and other highly paid professions. Certainly, [as the Guardian reports](http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/jul/04/unemployment-male-graduates), male graduates are more likely to be unemployed. I also refer you to the 2006 study by Riach and Rich, examining job applications according to sex. This clearly shows that, with the same CV, women are much more likely to be called in for interviews. This discrimination has always been the case (see EP Thompsons “Making of the English Working Class”, in which he establishes that nineteenth century industrialists went to great lengths to avoid hiring men, to avoid strikes and higher wage demands and so on). This also seems to be the case in [female dominated roles in Australia](http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/4546). ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/336 "2012-04-13T10:28:59Z")
From [this](http://h2g2.com/dna/h2g2/A8239999) list of tips for buskers: > [@](#): > > Be female. On average, a female busker earns over three times what a man would earn on the same pitch, playing the same instrument at the same time of day. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/337 "2012-04-13T10:48:08Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Another example for the OP: physical abuse of children. Firstly [corporal punishment is more commonly administered to male children](http://www.nospank.net/d-hill.htm), sometimes [legally limited to only being used on boys](http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/1290082-should-corporal-punishment-gender-specific.html), which is again true of [the poor and other disadvantaged groups](http://plan-international.org/learnwithoutfear/the-campaign/corporal-punishment), and obviously not girls. Clearly that’s another example of girls being seen as too weak and frail to endure physical punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/338 "2012-04-13T11:16:08Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Even if i believe your anecdote, it in no way supports the actual assertion that you made. I gave an example of applying for a medical job and being told (off the record) that I was unlikely to get it because of my gender. I don’t know about whether the reason for that is because they think we’re “all secretly perves”, but the point is there have been examples in this thread for the kind of job that **Martini Enfield** is talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/339 "2012-04-13T12:17:23Z")
WIC. Men are ineligible. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/340 "2012-04-13T13:04:54Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Everything that’s wrong with feminism in a nutshell: men are to be enslaved and killed, and that’s evidences of bias against women. > > The draft in America was instituted by a democratically elected government, in a country with more female voters than male voters. Rather, women were seen as too valuable to be sacrificed in combat, as is a common argument against women in combat today. I’m not sure I’ve heard any modern generals or others argue that women aren’t good enough for combat, it tends to be that they will disrupt unit cohesion or are too valuable to risk. Yes, all 9 female members of congress at the time the selective service act was signed in 1940. And I assure you that the idea that women weren’t included in the draft because they were “too valuable” rather than too weak to do the job is utter bullshit. It’s because women are excluded from military combat positions that the restriction for selective service was upheld. Not because they are better, but because they are thought to be too weak to handle front line combat positions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184.md?page=18)