# In what ways are men discriminated against? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 8, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184 "2012-04-08T16:38:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/361 "2012-04-13T17:46:12Z")
> [@Trepa\_Mayfield](#): > > People: there’s no reason an event can’t be sexist against both genders in different ways. Having a contest to see whether it’s worse for men or women is stupid, and futile. Instead, we should say, “Yes, that is sexist. It’s sexist no matter which way you look at it. It is unquestionably wrong, and we should work to repeal it.” To get bogged down in which gender that act is worse for is folly. We can’t do that, because then no one would be able to lose this bizarre reverse pissing match. Besides, it makes too much sense. **blindboyard** , please stop speaking on behalf of my gender. It’s embarassing. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/362 "2012-04-13T17:52:53Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > But you are ignoring the entire argument for WHY WOMEN AREN’T ALLOWED TO BE DRAFTED IN THE FIRST PLACE. I like that. “Allowed” to be drafted. Clever use of framing. Well, not really that clever. But definitely a use of framing. Nobody is “allowed” to be drafted. One has no choice in the matter of drafting. That is why it is drafting and not volunteering. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/363 "2012-04-13T17:54:37Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > I like that. “Allowed” to be drafted. Clever use of framing. Well, not really that clever. But definitely a use of framing. > > Nobody is “allowed” to be drafted. One has no choice in the matter of drafting. That is why it is drafting and not volunteering. You could argue semantics, or you could argue issues. You’ve obviously made your choice. Care to comment on the issue? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/364 "2012-04-13T18:05:08Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I’d be interested to know who told him this. To clarify: I was talking about one of my own anecdotes, and it was one of the people I was applying to about the job that told me the role was not suitable for a man. It was obviously an off the record comment – it would be illegal to openly say this. > [@](#): > > Because, in the articles i cited earlier about dental hygienists, there were quite a few men in the profession who were told by career counselors and other advisers that they would be unlikely to get jobs in the field, yet they went into the field anyway and still managed to get jobs. The fact that some people _believe_ something doesn’t always mean that it will come to pass; the fact that some people expect discrimination doesn’t mean it will actually happen. Your own cites included anecdotes of men being refused work or even enrollment in some hygiene schools because of their gender. And there was the survey of dentists where, what was it?, a third of dentists admitted they would be very reluctant or would never hire a male hygienist. But of course if you survey male dental hygienists of course you are going to find stories of people that beat the odds. That’s by design. It doesn’t mean that anyone else is imagining discrimination or it’s not a serious problem. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/365 "2012-04-13T18:18:11Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > **blindboyard** , please stop speaking on behalf of my gender. It’s embarassing. Since when does being a man who is speaking mean one is speaking for men? But I’ll go on ploughing my lone furrow of providing verifiable examples for the OP: In Britain the retirement age for men is 65 and for women is 60, although this is scheduled to change to equality at some point in quite a few years time. Women, of course, have a higher life expectancy. The are, again in Britain, what are called “women-only shortlists”, whereby political parties set aside certain constituencies to for which they will only allow women to stand on their behalf. Obviously this is meant to remedy the excessive democracy which saw only about a quarter of parliament being female. Apparently getting jobs for female politicians is more important than ensuring that female voters can elect who they want. Women-only shortlists were ruled to be illegal by the European courts, but the law was specifically changed to allow them by the last government. Also, women are now apparently legally entitled to receive equal pay for substantially different work, as [here](http://apbusinesscontacts.com/the_people_bulletin-pb_5/dinnerladies.aspx). That’s an equal pay claim by dinner ladies and other female workers because bin men and others doing unpleasant work were getting bonuses rather than being moved into a higher pay grade. Different jobs, the bonuses being paid on the basis of what job was being done rather than who was doing it so they would be received by female bin men and male dinner ladies, if such things existed, but were deemed illegal anyway, on the grounds that the council thinking people who shovel refuse for a living deserve a bonus is inherently discriminatory because women don’t want to do dirty jobs. Also, criminals discriminate against men. Hence the vast majority of victims of crimes against the person are male. This applies to both crimes committed by male and female criminals. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/366 "2012-04-13T18:27:49Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Your own cites included anecdotes of men being refused work or even enrollment in some hygiene schools because of their gender. And there was the survey of dentists where, what was it?, a third of dentists admitted they would be very reluctant or would never hire a male hygienist. Talk about selective use of evidence. One respondent, in one article, said that "“Some hygiene schools would not accept males.” This guy had, as the article makes very clear, been a dental hygienist for 34 years, meaning that he went to dental hygiene school sometime in the early 1970s. I guess i was under the impression, for the OP’s use of the term “are,” that we were discussing current levels of discrimination. But if it makes you feel better, i am happy to concede that, 40 years ago, it was probably harder for a man to get into dental hygiene college. And the other study, in a paragraph devoted explicitly to the issue of getting a job, said: > [@](#): > > Most of the participants found work shortly after graduation and have had little, if any, difficulty finding work since. A 1982 article on male dental hygienists stated that men may have hidden advantages in the profession, specifically a better rapport with employers and possibly with patients.[27] For these men, being a male was not a deterrent to their job search. In some cases, it was definitely helpful. It is impossible to know whether or not being a male was an advantage for the participants without interviewing their employers. Some of the participants felt that in isolated incidents they may have lost some jobs because of their gender, but that their gender did not prevent them from finding work in other offices. And i’m not sure why you bring up the fact that a third of dentists would be reluctant or would never hire a male hygienist, as if that were somehow a rebuttal to my argument. In my own goddam post, i wrote: > [@](#): > > This study suggests that 7% of dentists would completely refuse to hire a man in this position, even if he were the most qualified applicant, while 23% probably wouldn’t hire a man. I have never once in this thread denied that there is any discrimination. I have even, on numerous occasions, said that there is. I’m not sure what argument you think you’re making here that has any relevance. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/367 "2012-04-13T18:29:36Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > It was obviously an off the record comment – it would be illegal to openly say this. The comment, off the record or not, was still illegal. You should have reported the person for saying it. If you didn’t, you’ve helped to perpetuate the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/368 "2012-04-13T18:41:04Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > The comment, off the record or not, was still illegal. You should have reported the person for saying it. If you didn’t, you’ve helped to perpetuate the problem. Blaming the victim for the win! ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/369 "2012-04-13T19:14:13Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > Blaming the victim for the win! The victim isn’t to blame for the discrimination, but if people don’t report illegal activity it is more likely to keep happening. I feel the same about women who don’t report rape, for what it’s worth. I understand, at some level, why they don’t report it, but i still think they should. By the way, “for the win”? What are you? Five years old? ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/370 "2012-04-13T19:24:44Z")
There’s also the issue of lower car insurance rates for women, which has now been forbidden by the European courts. Women are actually more likely to have accidents per mile driven but tend to drive less miles. To think, if they had just acted quicker I might have saved several pounds on motorbicycle insurance. That’s sexism literally stealing bread from my plate, the bastards. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/371 "2012-04-13T19:36:55Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > Didn’t read the entire thread, but I doubt this one’s been mentioned before: according to an article I read years ago and cannot find right now, men and women commit parent-child homicides at a roughly equal rate; that is, about 50% of parent-child murders are committed by the mother. However, the rate of criminal convictions of such murders for men is approximately 90% higher than that of women, and when women _are_ convicted, their sentences are approximately 90% lighter than those given to men. > > As a society, we are weirdly understanding, and even forgiving, of mothers who murder their own children. That’s at least partially because, as a society, we’re becoming more aware of post-partum depression and its darker sibling, post-partum psychosis. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/372 "2012-04-13T19:46:18Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > You could argue semantics, or you could argue issues. I’ll just let the irony of this statement marinate in itself. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/373 "2012-04-13T20:08:50Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > I’ll just let the irony of this statement marinate in itself. Right. Arguing about the components of sexism and what constitutes gender discrimination is the same as what you did. I’ve been arguing issues. You just seem to want to nitpick about the word “allowed” as if anybody didn’t know that conscription was compulsory. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/374 "2012-04-13T20:47:40Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > By the way, “for the win”? What are you? Five years old? Old enough to know the stance on insults in IMHO. Also old enough to understand the irony of your question. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/375 "2012-04-13T21:11:08Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Talk about selective use of evidence. Absolutely. You’ve pounced on one thing I said when the big picture of your cites is that male dental hygienists experienced discrimination before and after finding work, and many dentists have been willing to admit to being discriminatory. But yes, I guess I didn’t read through the 20,000 words or so of the cites carefully enough. > [@](#): > > And the other study, in a paragraph devoted explicitly to the issue of getting a job, said: > > > [@](#): > > > > Most of the participants found work shortly after graduation and have had little, if any, difficulty finding work since. I couldn’t find that specific line, but I think we should be careful not to draw conclusions from it. The studies are surveys of existing hygienists and may not give the whole picture. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/376 "2012-04-13T21:22:14Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > You’ve pounced on one thing I said when the big picture of your cites is that male dental hygienists experienced discrimination before and after finding work, and many dentists have been willing to admit to being discriminatory. > But yes, I guess I didn’t read through the 20,000 words or so of the cites carefully enough. There was nowhere near 20,000 words, and the fact that you’re too lazy to read anything except what conforms to your own predispositions is not my problem. Having conceded that you didn’t even read the fucking things properly, it’s the height of gall and hubris to suggest that you can properly determine what the “big picture” of the articles is. In fact, having read all of them fully, i would say that the big picture is, in fact precisely what i suggested earlier: that male dental hygienists are subject to some gender-based assumptions that might, in some cases, affect their ability to get work, and that might, in some cases, affect their experiences on the job. But the clear emphasis of all the articles is also that such discrimination that does exist constitutes a minority of the profession, and that it is rapidly decreasing. Which is exactly the point i’ve been making all along, your half-informed, wilfully-incomplete “analysis” notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/377 "2012-04-13T23:20:37Z")
Firstly, I don’t know what I’ve said that’s warranted such a response. I actually want to have a discussion here; I’m not one of the people trying to talk about which gender has it worse and I’m not interested in flinging insults. And anyway; I was basing my summary on a lot of your earlier summary. If your point is just that gender discrimination against men is probably decreasing in many areas…I think I agree with that. I don’t think a survey of men who have found employment as dental hygienists is particularly strong support for that though because it could be a misleading sample. And it would not mean to me that there should not be a men’s rights movement. If, and only if, there is already equality in all areas, then a equal rights movement is pointless. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/378 "2012-04-14T00:08:50Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > And it would not mean to me that there should not be a men’s rights movement. If, and only if, there is already equality in all areas, then a equal rights movement is pointless. I think that is most basic point that needs to be made. People like **mhendo** like to inundate people with semantics, studies and numbers while still conceding the point that there may be a men’s rights or discrimination issue somewhere that applies to males. That is the basic point isn’t it? I don’t care how big it is and I don’t see how anyone could defend that. I already said that I love being a white affluent male in the U.S. but even single cases of someone getting screwed over within my cohort are perfectly valid complaints. It isn’t a pissing contest. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/379 "2012-04-14T00:21:59Z")
_Depends_ (the diapers). I want some parti-colored ones that look like Speedos, but noooooo. Best I can do is those little guard thingies. Q ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184/380 "2012-04-14T06:20:10Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > I’m looking here for examples, from your respective countries of actual examples of misandry or discrimination against men. > Valid examples that would justify a mens’ rights movement. > > Like family law discrimination and the like. In the US, having testicles makes you a second choice as parent. It is implied a female is a better parent in the court of law. One has to prove the female incompetent to get physical custody of the child. Children default to the female Affirmative Action penalizes white males. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-ways-are-men-discriminated-against/618184.md?page=20)