# In what year did the "sun set" on various European empires? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 25, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-year-did-the-sun-set-on-various-european-empires/623089 "2012-05-25T18:28:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-year-did-the-sun-set-on-various-european-empires/623089/1 "2012-05-25T18:28:16Z")
[Inspired by this recent thread about the British Empire:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=652990) It was often said that the “sun never set on the British Empire.” In the literal sense, this was because it spanned the globe, so the sun was always up in a British possession somewhere in the world. Apparently the quote was originally about the Spanish Empire, which was pretty globe-spanning too. A couple of years back we did a thread on [whether this was literally true](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=586445), and the consensus seemed to be that the sun has not yet set on the British Empire. My question: many European powers had empires back in the day. Which of them were large enough, at any point in history, that the “sun never set” on them in this sense? Do any of them (other than the UK) still have enough flyspeck possessions scattered about the globe that the “sun never sets” on them? And for those countries that once had large enough empires but don’t any more: when, exactly, did the “sun set” on them? I suspect that the Sun has not yet set on the French empire, given its possessions in the South Pacific and the Caribbean. When did the sun set on the Spanish Empire? The Portuguese? The Dutch? The Danish? (OK, the Danes may never have been constantly illuminated.) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-year-did-the-sun-set-on-various-european-empires/623089/2 "2012-05-25T19:17:58Z")
I couldn’t give a specific date. I do know Britain lost much of it’s holdings after WWII. For instance all the Arab lands that Sir Lawrence of Arabia was involved in were given back to the Arabs after the war. India was give freedom. They lost a lot of the colonial holdings after that war. It took two World Wars to deplete Britain’s tremendous power. Losing the colonies also removed their source of wealth. They’ve never been quite the same since WWII. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-year-did-the-sun-set-on-various-european-empires/623089/3 "2012-05-25T19:46:02Z")
I’m sure many others know more about Spain. The Spanish Monarchy fell in 1932. The Spanish civil war 1936 through 1939 was pretty horrific. Many of WWII’s modern weapons and tactics were “tested” in that civil war with predictable carnage. Fascist Dictator Francisco Franco emerged in power. He wisely stayed neutral in WWII and ruled until his death in 1975. I’m not exactly sure when Spain’s colonial power declined under the Monarchy. Obviously it was sometime before it fell in 1932. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-year-did-the-sun-set-on-various-european-empires/623089/4 "2012-05-25T19:50:47Z")
**Cites for Spain** Fascist Dictator Francisco Franco > **[Francisco Franco](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Franco)** > > Francisco Franco Bahamonde\[f\]\[g\] (born Francisco Paulino Hermenegildo Teódulo Franco Bahamonde; 4 December 1892 – 20 November 1975) was a Spanish general and dictator who led the Nationalist forces in overthrowing the Second Spanish Republic during the Spanish Civil War and thereafter ruled over Spain from 1939 to 1975, assuming the title Caudillo. This period in Spanish history, from the Nationalist victory to Franco's death, is commonly known as Francoist Spain or as the Francoist dictators... Spanish Civil War > **[Spanish Civil War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War)** > > Republicans > Nationalists > 100,000–200,000 civilians killed inside the Nationalist zone Spanish Monarchy > **[Monarchy of Spain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_of_Spain)** > > The monarchy of Spain or Spanish monarchy (Spanish: Monarquía Española) is the constitutional form of government of Spain. It consists of a hereditary monarch who reigns as the head of state, being the highest office of the country. > The Spanish monarchy is constitutionally referred to as The Crown (Spanish: La Corona), and it comprises the reigning monarch, currently King Felipe VI, their family, and the Royal Household, which supports and facilitates the sovereign in the exercise of his dut... > [@](#): > > However, in 1931 local and municipal elections produced victories (particularly in urban areas) for candidates favoring an end to the monarchy and the establishment of a republic. Faced with unrest in the cities, King Alfonso XIII went into exile, but did not abdicate. The ensuing provisional government evolved into the relatively short-lived Second Spanish Republic. The Spanish Civil War began in 1936 and ended on 1 April 1939 with the victory of General Francisco Franco and his coalition of allied organizations commonly referred to as the Nationalists. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-year-did-the-sun-set-on-various-european-empires/623089/5 "2012-05-25T20:03:14Z")
He’s not asking at metaphorical sunsets. He’s asking about literal sunsets. As in, how many global empires once existed such that some part of it was always in literal daylight, and what dates those empires ended. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-year-did-the-sun-set-on-various-european-empires/623089/6 "2012-05-25T20:17:13Z")
France owns Islands in the Pacific, Indian Ocean, Carribean and Saint Pierre and Miquelon off the east coast of Canada. Certainly never sets on French possessions. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-year-did-the-sun-set-on-various-european-empires/623089/7 "2012-05-25T20:22:08Z")
Right. Once England, Spain, Portugal etc. colony’s broke free then the term “Sun never sets” doesn’t apply anymore. The Empires were gone. Leaving countries with significantly less wealth and power. I was trying to address when those colonies left. There isn’t any one date. Britain lost colonies over a long period of time. Starting with the American Colonies. But, they lost the last major ones after WWII ended. The Arab lands, India etc. They lost Hong Kong in 1997. > [@Lemur866](#): > > He’s not asking at metaphorical sunsets. He’s asking about literal sunsets. As in, how many global empires once existed such that some part of it was always in literal daylight, and what dates those empires ended. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-year-did-the-sun-set-on-various-european-empires/623089/8 "2012-05-25T20:28:14Z")
For Spain, they probably lost the status following the Spanish American War, which lost them Cuba, Puerto Rico, Guam, the Philippines and some other Pacific islands. I imagine that possessions in the Carribean, Spain Itself and the Spanish East Indies were enough to confer “Sun never sets”. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-year-did-the-sun-set-on-various-european-empires/623089/9 "2012-05-25T20:40:33Z")
Never mind I messed up the location of the British overseas territories. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-year-did-the-sun-set-on-various-european-empires/623089/10 "2012-05-25T20:52:39Z")
For the Dutch, probably 1949, when they gave up on holding Indonesia. Suriname became independent in 1975, and they still have (partly autonomous) Caribbean possessions, but I don’t think those are far enough around the world to prevent the sun from setting. For Portugal, it would have been 1999, when Macau was handed over to China. > [@MikeS](#): > > (OK, the Danes may never have been constantly illuminated.) In the middle of summer, perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-year-did-the-sun-set-on-various-european-empires/623089/11 "2012-05-25T21:34:00Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > For the Dutch, probably 1949, when they gave up on holding Indonesia. Suriname became independent in 1975, and they still have (partly autonomous) Caribbean possessions, but I don’t think those are far enough around the world to prevent the sun from setting. > > For Portugal, it would have been 1999, when Macau was handed over to China. But just having Macau doesn’t mean the sun “didn’t set” on Portugal, as they’re only 7 hours apart (Macau being UTC/GMT +8, Lisbon being +1). About half an hour ago, it was 10:00pm in Lisbon and 5:00am in Macau. I would imagine the sun was down for both locations. Really you need an American possession somewhere to do the “sun never sets” thing, which for Portugal meant Brazil, which broke off in the early 19th Century. The Dutch still have the Antilles so that means the independence of either Suriname or Indonesia marks the end of that claim for the Netherlands. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-year-did-the-sun-set-on-various-european-empires/623089/12 "2012-05-25T21:37:34Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Right. Once England, Spain, Portugal etc. colony’s broke free then the term “Sun never sets” doesn’t apply anymore. The Empires were gone. Leaving countries with significantly less wealth and power. > > I was trying to address when those colonies left. There isn’t any one date. Britain lost colonies over a long period of time. Starting with the American Colonies. But, they lost the last major ones after WWII ended. The Arab lands, India etc. They lost Hong Kong in 1997. But Britain hasn’t lost all of its colonies. Britain has colonies in Europe, the Carribean, the Atlantic, the Pacific, and the Indian Ocean. > **[British Overseas Territories](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_overseas_territories)** > > The British Overseas Territories (BOTs) or alternatively referred to as the United Kingdom Overseas Territories (UKOTs) are the fourteen territories with a constitutional and historical link with the United Kingdom that, while not forming part of the United Kingdom itself, are part of its sovereign territory. The permanently inhabited territories are delegated varying degrees of internal self-governance, with the United Kingdom retaining responsibility for defence, foreign relatio Most of the... So does France. > **[Overseas France](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_departments_and_territories_of_France)** > > Overseas France (French: France d'outre-mer, also France ultramarine)\[note 3\] consists of 13 French territories outside Europe, mostly the remnants of the French colonial empire that remained a part of the French state under various statuses after decolonisation. Most are part of the European Union. > "Overseas France" is a collective name; while used in everyday life in France, it is not an administrative designation in its own right. Instead, the five overseas regions have exactly the same adm... Currently, it looks to me like both countries have empires the sun never literally sets on. Spain and Portugal have some Atlantic Islands and enclaves, the Netherlands still has some Carribean islands. They don’t qualify anymore, although they did at one time. The United States is pretty wide-spread, we’ve got territories in the Pacific and Carribean, but we’re missing a critical stretch in the Indian Ocean. Fails. Same with Russia–they have a pretty good run through Eurasia, but have nothing in the western hemisphere. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-year-did-the-sun-set-on-various-european-empires/623089/13 "2012-05-26T02:36:52Z")
> [@robardin](#): > > But just having Macau doesn’t mean the sun “didn’t set” on Portugal, as they’re only 7 hours apart (Macau being UTC/GMT +8, Lisbon being +1). About half an hour ago, it was 10:00pm in Lisbon and 5:00am in Macau. I would imagine the sun was down for both locations. Really you need an American possession somewhere to do the “sun never sets” thing, which for Portugal meant Brazil, which broke off in the early 19th Century. > > The Dutch still have the Antilles so that means the independence of either Suriname or Indonesia marks the end of that claim for the Netherlands. Right. The non-sunsetting Empires would have been the Spanish, Portuguese, British, Dutch and French, and with the late Dutch and Spanish they were pushing it by having sunset over the Antilles just after sunrise over Micronesia and Irian Jaya (West New Guinea). IIRC the original claim was of the combined Spanish-Portuguese Empire under Philips II and III. After Brazilian independence you’d have nothing Portuguese west of the Azores or east of Timor and that’s 205 degrees. Sunset alright. The rest of the Empire BTW would stand substantially intact until India takes Goa in '61 and the colonies are liberated in the 70s. Spain sunset in the absolute sense when she lost its remaining Caribbean and Pacific-Rim possessions in 1898, and by then it was inevitable. The Netherlands would sunset when Indonesia took over Irian Jaya in 1961 (de facto) or 1969 (de jure). Suriname independence was in the 70s but would have made no difference anyway, being in the Americas. Y’know, looking at the maps, with 158 degrees of longitude between Pitcairn Island in the Pacific and Diego Garcia in the British Indian Ocean Territory, it seems the Brits just\* barely\* make it. The French have a better margin with 105 degrees between New Caledonia and Reunion, their apparent biggest longitude gap between permanently inhabited locations (also, some of the French locations are not colonies but “Departments” i.e. they ARE France). ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-year-did-the-sun-set-on-various-european-empires/623089/14 "2012-05-26T04:07:05Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > The United States is pretty wide-spread, we’ve got territories in the Pacific and Carribean, but we’re missing a critical stretch in the Indian Ocean. Fails. The US has troops on Diego Garcia, I think. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-year-did-the-sun-set-on-various-european-empires/623089/15 "2012-05-26T04:17:56Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > The US has troops on Diego Garcia, I think. Yes but it’s not US territory, it’s British Indian Ocean Territory and the US just leases it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-year-did-the-sun-set-on-various-european-empires/623089/16 "2012-05-26T04:32:24Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Yes but it’s not US territory, it’s British Indian Ocean Territory and the US just leases it. Officially the highest ranking political figure on Diego Garcia is the Commander of the British Forces stationed there. Which is something of a fig leaf because there are approximately 4000 Americans military personnel and approximately 50 British military personnel on the island. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-year-did-the-sun-set-on-various-european-empires/623089/17 "2012-05-26T04:44:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Officially the highest ranking political figure on Diego Garcia is the Commander of the British Forces stationed there. Which is something of a fig leaf because there are approximately 4000 Americans military personnel and approximately 50 British military personnel on the island. Yeah well obviously if having troops stationed somewhere counts then the US has an empire the sun never sets on. But does anyone really want to try and claim that part of Okinawa in Japan is US territory? Or that the Naval base in Qatar is US territory? I think the governments of those countries would get rather upset. The reality is if Britain ordered the US to leave Diego Garcia they would, same for all other US bases, they are there only with the continued agreement of the host nations government. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-year-did-the-sun-set-on-various-european-empires/623089/18 "2012-05-26T04:52:30Z")
The sun never sets on the mighty Norwegian Empire either: [Dependencies of Norway - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependency_of_Norway) ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-year-did-the-sun-set-on-various-european-empires/623089/19 "2012-05-26T10:27:47Z")
It certainly underlines the different times. Empire really meant something back in the day. If you were to cast the question as defining any part of the empire as a possession that actually makes money for the possessing nation rather than costing money to administer and prop up, it might be a very different question. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-year-did-the-sun-set-on-various-european-empires/623089/20 "2012-05-26T12:31:57Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > The sun never sets on the mighty Norwegian Empire either: [Dependencies of Norway - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependency_of_Norway) Thought of that. Not sure it works. Yes, because of Svalbard, and the reserved Antarctic claim, Norway has regions at both poles, but not all the way TO the poles, so there may be a period when neither one of them is in 24 hour sunlight. And the Norwegian Antarctic claim runs from 20W to 44E, placing it on the same side of the globe as Norway itself. During the spring and autumn months, I think they might be dark at the same time. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-what-year-did-the-sun-set-on-various-european-empires/623089.md?page=2)