# In which Cisco creates a whole new breed of fundie **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 16, 2002, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046 "2002-12-16T07:49:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046/61 "2002-12-16T13:42:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > \*\*Exactly so. Nobody should be _expected_ to spend their time looking into something that appears to be bunk. We just don’t have all the time in the world to look into everything that we can’t 100% rule out. > I think it’s a balancing test. On one scale you have your best guess as to how likely some proposition or set of beliefs is to be true. On the other you have how important it would be to you to know the truth of the issue. If someone proposes that some nobleman was the real William Shakespeare, and I thought about whether I’d want to investigate that claim, I’d consider both how likely it appears on its face and what significance the answer would have to me (either actual impact on my life, or mere amusement.) > Claims appearing to be supernatural have a pretty low chance of being true, on first glance. However, some of those claims, if true, would have a pretty darn big impact on your life. So you balance the scales. IMHO, some religions if true would have great impact, and so are worth at least a little investigation even though they seem ridiculously improbable. YMMV, of course. \*\* I agree with you; but my point wasn’t about simple belief. My point was that if you are going to be passionate about something, whether it be to despise something, or to witness something, you should have more than a little knowledge about it, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046/62 "2002-12-16T13:47:36Z")
**ultress** , now here’s an “uncalled for comment”: you are smart and wise and belong in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046/63 "2002-12-16T13:48:44Z")
Whoops. I meant fuck off idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046/64 "2002-12-16T13:55:06Z")
RexDart wrote: > [@](#): > > A backache is a testable phenomenon, you could design experiments to ascertain it’s cause and correlate the presence of that condition with instances of people saying “my back hurts.” Spiritual experience is testable as well. See _Phantoms in the Brain_ by V.S. Ramachandran, M.D., Ph.D, the chapter titled “God and the Limbic System”. > [@](#): > > OTOH, I don’t think you (or anyone else) can know what you claim to know, namely the truth of various religious statements. Religious experience (if it really were more than just your mind tricking you) does not have a testable cause, it defies causal explanation, and is not similiar to any experience that I (or most people for that matter) ever had knowledge of. Op. cit. > [@](#): > > Thus the best conclusion for me to make is that you don’t actually know it, but you just think you do. Of course I can’t know with certainty what you know or don’t know, because of that stupid “problem of other minds” thing, I can’t get into your head, but I sure can infer. An inference from insufficient data is a logical fallacy. Thinking that your own experiences are definitive for all people, that what you know defines what others ought to know, and that what you’ll learn is what can be known — these are epistemological obstacles. As someone whom you respect, I recommend that you shed them. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ultress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/7c8e57/32.png) [@ultress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultress)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046/65 "2002-12-16T14:14:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cisco \* > \*\*ultress have you even been reading this thread? I’ve agreed with what several people have said here and we’ve been having a good conversation imho that is rapidly progressing without stagnation, quite contrary to whatever thread you think you read. > > I don’t know where you get the idea that anything you say to me is a waste of typing, maybe you just have a stick up your ass, I don’t know. If you’re saying that these people aren’t going to convert me to christianity then you’re just stating the obvious, I certainly don’t expect them to convert to atheism, nor am I trying to get them to. However, if you’re just talking about me and this conversation in general then I suggest you do some actual reading and rethink your incredibly weak post. Your statements are not unlike your lower intestine: stinky, and full of danger. \*\* Well obviously I’ve been reading your thread, maybe you should re-read it. We seem to be reading the same thread in a different light. You see it your way, and I see it the way dopers are posting in response to you. ---
**Author:** ![ultress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/7c8e57/32.png) [@ultress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultress)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046/66 "2002-12-16T14:19:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\ ***ultress** , now here’s an “uncalled for comment”: you are smart and wise and belong in this thread. \*\* Newbies are so cute!! They don’t miss a thing and SO original. ---
**Author:** ![ultress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/7c8e57/32.png) [@ultress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultress)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046/67 "2002-12-16T14:22:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*Whoops. I meant fuck off idiot. \*\* Better, but still not in par with the rest of the pit. Slow response, no originality at all. IQ too obvious, but there’s hope and you are learning. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046/68 "2002-12-16T14:34:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Again, I said in the other thread that I don’t bring up religion unless someone else throws the first punch. You said this in a thread **you** started? Hmmmmmm… Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DeadlyAccurate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@DeadlyAccurate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadlyAccurate)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046/69 "2002-12-16T15:01:13Z")
I’m usually outclassed in threads about religion, so I don’t post much in them, but this one comment **Cisco** made is something I’d like to remark upon. > [@](#): > > Why? I think that’s the biggest issue/problem here. Why do you respect my beliefs? I’m honest enough to say that I don’t respect yours, and I don’t expect you to respect mine. I’m really having trouble here. Please define ‘respect’. People respect your beliefs because they want their own beliefs respected. It’s that golden rule thing. Do unto others and all that. If you truly respected your girlfriend, you wouldn’t make fun of her religion to her face. You’d respect that her beliefs are different than yours, and that while you don’t believe in them and can’t, you can understand that she can and does believe in them. I don’t believe in the Hindu religion, but I’ve known plenty of intelligent people who did, and not only would I not tease them about their strongly held religious beliefs to their face, I wouldn’t even mock them behind their backs. True respect is thinking high enough of someone to not want to hurt them. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046/70 "2002-12-16T15:11:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DeadlyAccurate \* > \*\*I’m usually outclassed in threads about religion, so I don’t post much in them, but this one comment **Cisco** made is something I’d like to remark upon. > > People respect your beliefs because they want their own beliefs respected. It’s that golden rule thing. Do unto others and all that. If you truly respected your girlfriend, you wouldn’t make fun of her religion to her face. You’d respect that her beliefs are different than yours, and that while you don’t believe in them and can’t, you can understand that she can and does believe in them. > > I don’t believe in the Hindu religion, but I’ve known plenty of intelligent people who did, and not only would I not tease them about their strongly held religious beliefs to their face, I wouldn’t even mock them behind their backs. > > True respect is thinking high enough of someone to not want to hurt them. \*\* I think you’ve just summed up some pretty good points about respect! ---
**Author:** ![Persephone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecc23a/32.png) [@Persephone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Persephone)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046/71 "2002-12-17T03:02:05Z")
Cisco? Perhaps you’re equating “not respecting” with “not sharing.” If that’s the case…stop. They’re not the same. I respect your beliefs, in that while I don’t agree with them, I don’t think you’re an idiot for believing that way. I feel that you have the right to believe the way you do. However, I _do not share_ your beliefs. Here’s an example from personal experience: I have this friend. I’ll call him D. He’s one of the best friends I’ve ever had, ever, in my whole life. One of those friends that I’d bury bodies for. No, I’d do the killing and the burying for him, so he wouldn’t have to dirty his hands. In your MPSIMS thread, I mentioned that I’m a Pagan. My aforementioned friend? SBC. Southern Baptist Conference. We’ve got a lot in common, including a _respect_ for each other’s beliefs. Never in a million years would I try to tell him he’s wrong about what he believes. And he’s never tried to tell me that I’m wrong about mine. _That’s_ what we mean by “respecting her beliefs.” Now, you’ve got to figure out what _you_ mean. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046/72 "2002-12-17T03:20:43Z")
Persephone people tell me I’m wrong for my beliefs all the time. I mean, look at my location, I live in the _bible belt_. Hell, some of my friends even have a favorite saying for me - “You’re going to hell.” It doesn’t bother me. They say what they believe and tell me I’m wrong, I say what I believe and tell them they’re wrong. There’s no hostility there. We’re still friends and we still like and respect each other without liking or respecting each others beliefs. The same goes for my girlfriend. We love and respect each other, we just don’t respect each others beliefs. She thinks that there’s someone watching over that she can talk to when she’s having a hard time, I think there’s not. I really don’t think it’s that huge of a deal and she doesn’t either. Maybe sometime in the future it will become more of an issue and we will have to make some sort of compromise or something but I’m not going to ruin a good thing now because of something that _might_ happen in the future. One thing I’ve learned from this and the MPSIMS thread is that if my girlfriend was _half_ as uptight as some of you people we would’ve broken up a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![Persephone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecc23a/32.png) [@Persephone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Persephone)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046/73 "2002-12-17T03:45:02Z")
> [@](#): > > We love and respect each other, we just don’t respect each others beliefs. She thinks that there’s someone watching over that she can talk to when she’s having a hard time, I think there’s not. Then you don’t _share_ the same beliefs. There IS a difference. We’re talking semantics here, Cisco. If you don’t _respect_ each other’s beliefs, then you simply don’t respect an integral part of what makes each other the people you are. > [@](#): > > If you’re going to make a claim then that claim is fair game for open criticism. You said that, Cisco. Sure, your girlfriend’s beliefs in Christianity are fair game. But so are your non-beliefs. In other words, you want to “jokingly” call her family Advent gift-exchange a “cultic ritual”? Then don’t even _think_ about being honked when she tells you that “Jesus loves you.” You want to be intolerant and disrespectful of her beliefs, then be prepared to take intolerance and disrespect of your own from her. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046/74 "2002-12-17T04:26:37Z")
Okay **Cisco** , I’ll try to talk real slow for you: > [@](#): > > In my eyes anyone who seeks out facts and uses logical and rational thought will easily come to the conclusion that Christianity is a fallacy and therefore I can’t **respect anyone** who refuses to come to that conclusion. Don’t attack me based on that last sentence, I love my girlfriend and I **respect her** very much, I just can’t bring myself to respect her religious beliefs. Can you see the contradiction? Is it still fuzzy for you? You say you can’t respect any **person** who is Christian. Yet you claim to respect your GF, who is Christian. Any questions? ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046/75 "2002-12-17T05:01:23Z")
Cisco, one of your ongoing themes seems to be that you think you ought to be able to treat your GF like you do your friends. Giving each other a bad time, thinking your friends’ beliefs are dumb, etc. is much more OK than it is with your GF if you are planning on building a life together. Disrespect is not a good foundation for a marriage. You talked at first about raising kids together, you seem to want to be serious with her and be thinking about marriage, lifetime commitment, children, whathaveyou. (And have you asked her about that? She may like you to date, but not be thinking of you as marriage material.) _You cannot treat a life partner in the same way you do a buddy._ When you have a wife, you can’t disrespect her beliefs and think she’s gullible. You have to be willing to stand by her in what she believes–not to think the same, but to support her in what she wants. You can’t mock her opinions when both of you know that you really mean it underneath and really do think she’s wrong and stupid. You have to be willing to defend her to others. You have to treat her so that she can respect herself for being with you. Posting on a public message board about how you can’t stand your wife’s religion is not a cool thing to do (you can get away with it about someone you’re dating, but people won’t think much of you). I’ll say it again; someday your GF is going to figure out that disrespect of her beliefs=disrespect of her. When she decides that your contempt of her religion outweighs the fact that she likes you and wants to please you, she will most likely be pretty upset. It takes a while to realize this, because you so obviously like her very much and want to be with her, but she may feel that your love is not worth the price she has to pay in her self-respect. I used to be her, you know, and I used to date you. It took me a while to figure it out too. I feel dumb now for putting up with it for so long, but it’s hard to see sometimes when there’s so much lovey-dovey stuff in the way. Love without respect, however, is not enough for a marriage. My ex-BF and I are both very glad now that I broke it off–we’ve each found people who are much more suited to us. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046/76 "2002-12-17T08:12:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Cisco wrote: > > Let me ask you some questions. > > [ul] > [li]What is the Christian moral imperative?[/li][li]What was Jesus’ new commandment to supercede the old?[/li][li]How did Jesus say His followers could be identified?[/li][li]What did Jesus answer when Pilate asked, “What is truth?”[/li][li]What did Jesus advise when an adultress was brought to Him?[/li][/ul] > If you know the answers to any of those, explain why they deserve disrespect. If you don’t know the answers, explain why you’re disrespecting something about which you are ignorant. 😉 \*\* Okay, in order… * * * The greatest commandment is that you love the Lord God with all your mind, heart, and sou. The second, like that, is this: You must love your neighbor as yourself. * * * I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another. * * * By this, all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves. * * * Nothing. Pilate went out to the Jews seeking to release Jesus. * * * Let you who is without sin cast the first stone. * * * This is all I can do from memory, I can post the actual scriptures in a while if anyone needs them, but I will need to look for them. Since I have nothing else to say here, I cede the floor to who ever wants it. But no Fundie Crap!! If your going to defend a faith, whatever faith it is, do so with a little class… ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046/77 "2002-12-17T08:16:13Z")
“sou” = soul the last “your” = you’re It’s late and I’ve been drink’n 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046/78 "2002-12-17T08:21:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by genie \* > **you think you ought to be able to treat your GF like you do your friends.** But she’s like, my _best_ friend. > [@](#): > > **And have you asked her about that? She may like you to date, but not be thinking of you as marriage material.** _I’ve_ never asked _her_ but she brings it up to me semi-often. Gonna have a[nother] looong talk with her about all this tomorrow. You guys are scaring me into thinking it’s a bigger issue than I thought it was… ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046/79 "2002-12-17T08:50:42Z")
NoClueBoy You got 4 out of 5. (The first one is a toughy.) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046/80 "2002-12-17T09:02:45Z")
It’s weird…I think I’ve gotten nicer and more intelligent posts over here in the pit than I did in my MPSIMS thread. I _still_ don’t quite understand why repsect for beliefs is a prerequisite for respect for the person though. I just can’t wrap my head around the concept that a person and a person’s beliefs are not two different things. Try to imagine revering a baseball player if you have absolutely no intrest in baseball. It just…doesn’t matter to you. Other people may get all excited and emotional about Mark McGuire or Sammy Sosa but you just don’t care. And then a crowd of people come along and say “HEY! You should _respect_ Sam Sosa goddamnit! That man hit more baseballs than anyone else in history!” Well, you _just don’t care_ though. Does anyone follow me here? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-cisco-creates-a-whole-new-breed-of-fundie/143046.md?page=5)