# In Which Eve is Baffled by a "Proverb"
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-eve-is-baffled-by-a-proverb/193585
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 7, 2003, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-eve-is-baffled-by-a-proverb/193585 "2003-08-07T14:20:47Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2003, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-eve-is-baffled-by-a-proverb/193585/1 "2003-08-07T14:20:47Z")
So, I am doing the subtle “peering at what your neighbor’s reading” maneuver on the subway last night. This woman had a Book of Biblical Proverbs on her lap, and I started looking at it.
I saw one which began, “Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth . . .” and I thought, “Oh, well, that’s nice, although I seriously doubt I could live up to _that_.” Then I caught the rest of the Proverb: " . . . Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him."
_What_ the _huh?_ Doesn’t this mean, “Don’t let God know how happy you are that your enemy is miserable, or God will stop torturing him for your pleasure?” What the hell kind of Proverb is _that?!_
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### Author:  [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2003, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-eve-is-baffled-by-a-proverb/193585/2 "2003-08-07T14:24:50Z")
It’s the kind of Proverb that’s common in the Old Testament.
You know, like “Be nice to those that hate you… because it’ll drive them nuts.”
Or the ones about God smashing your enemies and causing them to vanish like “wax before the fire” (obviously anticipating the end scene of _Indiana Jones and the Lost Ark_.)
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### Author:  [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2003, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-eve-is-baffled-by-a-proverb/193585/3 "2003-08-07T14:28:32Z")
Think all but the most ardent biblical literalist would admit that, certainly in the Old Testament, what was handed down orally to ultimately end up in the Bible was sometimes how people _wanted_ God to be like.
Many theists here would not recognise their God in that verse.
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### Author:  [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-eve-is-baffled-by-a-proverb/193585/4 "2003-08-07T14:33:18Z")
Wow, I had no idea the Bible could be so mean-spirited! Maybe I’ve been underestimating it all these years . . .
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2003, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-eve-is-baffled-by-a-proverb/193585/5 "2003-08-07T14:45:38Z")
It’s Proverbs 24:17-18 if anyone wants to look up the passage.
Your interpretation is pretty close, although there is no indication that God is torturing your enemies for your entertainment. The proverb is in the middle of several passages describing the bad things that are going to happen to bad people.
As far as I can tell, the proverb is warning us against gloating over our enemies’ downfall. Doing this is a usurpation of God’s role as Judge. The danger is that God may withdraw His judgement of the wicked, and leave it all up to you. It is sort of a variant of “Be careful what you wish for”.
Or you can interpret it in a practical way, as a warning “Don’t kick a man when he is down, because he might get up. And if he does, don’t expect God to save you.”
Regards,
Shodan
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### Author:  [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2003, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-eve-is-baffled-by-a-proverb/193585/6 "2003-08-07T15:10:35Z")
So, it’s kind of a “karma is a pisser” proverb?
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2003, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-eve-is-baffled-by-a-proverb/193585/7 "2003-08-07T15:12:00Z")
I think Shodan is a little closer to the truth. Actually it strikes me as suggesting that if you gloat over someone’s misfortune, you’ll get a taste of teh same medicine.
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### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2003, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-eve-is-baffled-by-a-proverb/193585/8 "2003-08-07T15:14:49Z")
Pretty much. Also an advisement that The Lord’s Wrath™ is _not_ for your entertainment, but should inspire Awe and a good helping of Fear and even some sadness that this guy got himself in a position to come to such a bad end, not, as **Shodan** said, gloating.
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### Author:  [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2003, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-eve-is-baffled-by-a-proverb/193585/9 "2003-08-07T15:16:22Z")
Except that it doesn’t really say anything about God’s wrath falling on you.
Another, less bloodthirsty interpretation is as follows:
Don’t assume that misfortune means that a man has called down the wrath of the Lord, for the ending of that misfortune would prove you wrong.
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2003, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-eve-is-baffled-by-a-proverb/193585/10 "2003-08-07T15:21:30Z")
It’s almost as good as Psalm 18:32-49:
> [@](#):
>
> [sup]32[/sup] It is God who arms me with strength
> and makes my way perfect.
> [sup]33[/sup] He makes my feet like the feet of a deer;
> he enables me to stand on the heights.
> [sup]34[/sup] He trains my hands for battle;
> my arms can bend a bow of bronze.
> [sup]35[/sup] You give me your shield of victory,
> and your right hand sustains me;
> you stoop down to make me great.
> [sup]36[/sup] You broaden the path beneath me,
> so that my ankles do not turn.
>
> [sup]37[/sup] \*\*I pursued my enemies and overtook them;
> I did not turn back till they were destroyed.
> [sup]38[/sup] I crushed them so that they could not rise;
> they fell beneath my feet.
> [sup]39[/sup] You armed me with strength for battle;
> you made my adversaries bow at my feet.
> [sup]40[/sup] You made my enemies turn their backs in flight,
> and I destroyed my foes.
> [sup]41[/sup] They cried for help, but there was no one to save them-
> to the LORD , but he did not answer.
> [sup]42[/sup] I beat them as fine as dust borne on the wind;
> I poured them out like mud in the streets. \*\*
>
> [sup]43[/sup] You have delivered me from the attacks of the people;
> you have made me the head of nations;
> people I did not know are subject to me.
> [sup]44[/sup] As soon as they hear me, they obey me;
> foreigners cringe before me.
> [sup]45[/sup] They all lose heart;
> they come trembling from their strongholds.
>
> [sup]46[/sup] The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock!
> Exalted be God my Savior!
> [sup]47[/sup] He is the God who avenges me,
> who subdues nations under me,
> [sup]48[/sup] who saves me from my enemies.
> You exalted me above my foes;
> from violent men you rescued me.
> [sup]49[/sup] Therefore I will praise you among the nations, O LORD ;
> I will sing praises to your name.
God is a good guy to have around in a knife fight.
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### Author:  [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2003, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-eve-is-baffled-by-a-proverb/193585/11 "2003-08-07T15:23:33Z")
“As far as I can tell, the proverb is warning us against gloating over our enemies’ downfall. Doing this is a usurpation of God’s role as Judge.”
The old spoil-sport.
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### Author:  [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2003, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-eve-is-baffled-by-a-proverb/193585/12 "2003-08-07T15:26:17Z")
Jesus was an avid student of the OT, I can imagine that he derived his “love thy enemies” and “don’t worry about what is in someone else’s eye” from this and other parts fo the OT.
I am not knocking **Eve** since this particular passage is somewhat confusing. However, I’d like to take this opportunity to express my dismay at the completely negative view many people have of the OT.
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-eve-is-baffled-by-a-proverb/193585/13 "2003-08-07T15:31:12Z")
I honestly don’t see what the problem is.
This is the Jewsih God we’re talking about - not the Christian one. He _can_ be merciful, it’s just not policy.
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### Author:  [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-eve-is-baffled-by-a-proverb/193585/14 "2003-08-07T16:23:00Z")
I think Abraham Lincoln said something like ‘God is always on the side of right, lets just hope our nation is on God’s side.’
And God’s mercy is shown throughout the Old Testament. How many years did it take Noah to build an ark? During that time, as it had never rained, do you not think people asked about it, and were told what God had said? Would God have not destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for the sake of just ten righteous people? Was the ‘scape goat’ showing mercy for sins, where judgment was warranted? Didn’t the prophets warn of the blessings and curses of obedience vs. disobedience?
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2003, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-eve-is-baffled-by-a-proverb/193585/15 "2003-08-07T17:44:49Z")
Read the proverb Eve gave again, then read the responses. Are the responses to the proverb, or to what the theists assume is the objection?
Svt4Him says those killed by the flood were warned (even the babies? No matter.) But the proverb is not talking about punishment for the wicked, but about god not punishing your enemy if you gloat. Alessan talks about that mighty morphin god, unchangeable except if the OT god gets embarrassing. I could have sworn that someone told me Christians were monotheists - my mistake.
Kniz talks about love thy enemies. I didn’t realize that came from love thy enemies, or else god may not punish them. I guess I don’t understand the NT very well.
RickJay talks about getting the same medicine. Where that came from, I don’t know, unless your enemy not getting punished is considered as punishment. (I can see that in the OT).
And Shodan says that it might mean that God will withhold punishment of the wicked and leave it to us. Well, I can see that as a reasonable interpretation of this verse - however I thought the whole hell thing was because god didn’t have any choice about punishing sinners. Does this mean we can save people by sneering at them?
I’ve got a little experiment - let’s start rejoicing at people getting cancer and AIDS, and maybe God will cure them just to spite us.
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### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-eve-is-baffled-by-a-proverb/193585/16 "2003-08-07T17:58:03Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Eve \*
> Wow, I had no idea the Bible could be so mean-spirited! Maybe I’ve been underestimating it all these years . . .
You’ll _love_ the Old Testament, then. 😉
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-eve-is-baffled-by-a-proverb/193585/17 "2003-08-07T18:32:36Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Voyager \*
> \*\*Alessan talks about that mighty morphin god, unchangeable except if the OT god gets embarrassing. I could have sworn that someone told me Christians were monotheists - my mistake.
>
> \*\*
I’m Jewish. As far as I’m concerned, the God of the _Tanach_ is the only God in the game.
The quote form the OP, BTW, was written 500 years - at least - before the birth of Christ and has nothing to do with Christianity.
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-eve-is-baffled-by-a-proverb/193585/18 "2003-08-07T19:27:18Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Alessan \*
> \*\*I’m Jewish. As far as I’m concerned, the God of the _Tanach_ is the only God in the game.
>
> The quote form the OP, BTW, was written 500 years - at least - before the birth of Christ and has nothing to do with Christianity. \*\*
Ah - I’ve heard so many Chrisians make this point without irony that I was fooled. I’m Jewish also, and I’m with you. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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### Author:  [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2003, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-eve-is-baffled-by-a-proverb/193585/19 "2003-08-08T01:14:04Z")
**How many years did it take Noah to build an ark?**
I imagine his sons helped, too.
Anyhow, the off-the-cuff answer you will get is 120 years, but anyone who has bothered to read Genesis will see that 120 years is waaaaaaay too long.
Noah was 500 before his 3 sons were born. When God commanded Noah to build the ark, his sons were already married (unless God was speaking prophetically about his daughter-in-law’s going along for the ride when He told Noah to build it), so chances are they weren’t kids. He was 600 when the flood hit, so if you figure the average age at marriage for a man was, oh, 35ish (just a guess), it probably took them oh, 50-65 years to build it.
Or maybe they just threw that sucker up in a coupla years. Doubtful, though. That thing was huge and it had to be made out of a certain kind of wood, which probably involved a lot of tree chopping.
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### Author:  [@stick\_monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stick_monkey)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-eve-is-baffled-by-a-proverb/193585/20 "2003-08-08T16:04:04Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Or maybe they just threw that sucker up in a coupla years. Doubtful, though. That thing was huge and it had to be made out of a certain kind of wood, which probably involved a lot of tree chopping.
Or maybe when the guy was telling the story for the first time some kid at the campfire asked, “So uh, how old was Noah, and how long did it take to build this ark” and he replied, “Uh, I don’t know, like 500 or something, and it took like 100 years to build the ark, it was big after all, of course it only took a few months for all the animals/provisions to get on, nevermind all those ones on the two continents we haven’t even discovered yet, or the BILLIONS of insect species…or…ad infinitum”
Glad this thing was in GD. I just couldn’t resist smarting off.
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