# In which I agree with what the NRA says **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075 "2013-11-29T16:16:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075/61 "2013-12-04T14:25:27Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Wait - you equate ‘it’s better if we had fewer guns around to prevent split-second impulse suicides’ as ‘forcing your beliefs on someone’? You think it’s the same as ‘trying to convert them to another religion’? > > Seriously, that’s what you think? So, are you going to offer a debate to my statements or simply offer additional emotionally-charged strawmen to each post I make? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075/62 "2013-12-04T14:58:26Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > If you really really want to kill yourself quickly and painlessly, there are ways of doing it if you’re determined to do it. Guns mean that you don’t need to be -that- determined; a split second impulse _BLAM_ and your brains are all over the wall.We know for \*FUCKING FACT \*that making it just a little bit harder to \*END YOUR FUCKING LIFE \*results in more people actually deciding to live. No doubt you’re shocked, shocked, I tell you, to realize that sometimes people who wanted to commit suicide in a brief moment of despair ultimately decide NOT to die. Good thing gun ownership isn’t mandatory, then. People can choose to accept a suicide risk, or not. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075/63 "2013-12-04T16:19:06Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Good thing gun ownership isn’t mandatory, then. People can choose to accept a suicide risk, or not. Actually, it’s more likely to be ‘People can choose to accept a higher suicide risk for their children, or not’. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075/64 "2013-12-04T16:27:39Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Actually, it’s more likely to be ‘People can choose to accept a higher suicide risk for their children, or not’. So it’s only an issue for you if there are children in the home? Sounds reasonable enough. Several states have laws mandating that guns be secured when children dwell in the home, and some have laws that impose a prison sentence if an unsecured gun is used in an unlawful shooting or suicide. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075/65 "2013-12-05T11:00:51Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > some have laws that impose a prison sentence if an unsecured gun is used in an unlawful shooting or suicide. There are laws imposing prison sentences if an unsecured gun is used in a suicide? In any event - while my issue isn’t ‘kids’ specifically (I think the issue is 'too many fucking guns, too many excuses given for why we need them and too many excuses given as to when they can be used), but at least in my last few posts, I’m arguing against the claim given above that ‘it is presumptuous of us to think that we should be trying to prevent suicides’. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075/66 "2013-12-05T14:33:38Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > There are laws imposing prison sentences if an unsecured gun is used in a suicide? Yes, for minors. I’m not sure how many states have them, but some do. ETA: According to [this](http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/White1.html), from 1993, nine states had similar laws. Here’s [Connecticut’s](http://law.justia.com/codes/connecticut/2005/title53a/sec53a-217a.html): > [@](#): > > Sec. 53a-217a. Criminally negligent storage of a firearm: Class D felony. (a) A person is guilty of criminally negligent storage of a firearm when he violates the provisions of section 29-37i and a minor obtains the firearm and causes the injury or death of himself or any other person. For the purposes of this section, “minor” means any person under the age of sixteen years. > > (b) The provisions of this section shall not apply if the minor obtains the firearm as a result of an unlawful entry to any premises by any person. > > (c) Criminally negligent storage of a firearm is a class D felony. 29-37i refers to [Responsibilities re storage of loaded firearms with respect to minors:](http://www.cga.ct.gov/2011/pub/chap529.htm#Sec29-37i.htm) > [@](#): > > No person shall store or keep any loaded firearm on any premises under his control if he knows or reasonably should know that a minor is likely to gain access to the firearm without the permission of the parent or guardian of the minor unless such person (1) keeps the firearm in a securely locked box or other container or in a location which a reasonable person would believe to be secure or (2) carries the firearm on his person or within such close proximity thereto that he can readily retrieve and use it as if he carried it on his person. For the purposes of this section, “minor” means any person under the age of sixteen years. > [@DragonAsh](#): > > In any event - while my issue isn’t ‘kids’ specifically (I think the issue is 'too many fucking guns, too many excuses given for why we need them and too many excuses given as to when they can be used), but at least in my last few posts, I’m arguing against the claim given above that ‘it is presumptuous of us to think that we should be trying to prevent suicides’. Understood; my argument is that assuming a greater risk of suicide is part of the choice of owning a firearm. Owning a hot tub means assuming a greater risk of drowning, owning a motorcycle means assuming a greater risk of death in an accident, and so forth. So far as I know, people aren’t stealing guns to kill themselves, they use their own. As far as minors in the home are concerned, a law like 29-37i would help. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075/67 "2013-12-05T18:53:26Z")
Because clearly the one thing a grieving parent needs who’s child who has recently taken their own life is to be charged with a crime. That’ll teach 'em. It’ll probably wipe that big smile right off their face. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075/68 "2013-12-05T19:02:23Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Because clearly the one thing a grieving parent needs who’s child who has recently taken their own life is to be charged with a crime. > > That’ll teach 'em. It’ll probably wipe that big smile right off their face. > > :rolleyes: It’s not just their child, it applies to any minor that the adult knows or reasonably should have known is likely to gain access to the firearm. There’s also a deterrent effect: if you know in advance that you’re on the hook for misuse of your firearm, you’re incentivized to prevent such misuse. Should we apply your reasoning to any situation in which an adult’s negligence results in the death of a minor? Should they never be liable, or is this situation somehow special? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075/69 "2013-12-05T19:13:34Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It’s not just their child, it applies to any minor that the adult knows or reasonably should have known is likely to gain access to the firearm. Yes, whatever. I’m sure if it’s their kid’s friend they’ll be fine and wont feel any guilt. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > There’s also a deterrent effect: if you know in advance that you’re on the hook for misuse of your firearm, you’re incentivized to prevent such misuse. You mean, additional deterrent above the actual dead child? That’s not enough of a deterrent? > [@](#): > > Should we apply your reasoning to any situation in which an adult’s negligence results in the death of a minor? For the most part, yes. If the adult in question didn’t actually do anything wrong or actually participate in the death somehow, there’s no point in charging them. > [@](#): > > Should they never be liable, or is this situation somehow special? You are the one who wants to make it special. The law you are requesting isn’t a general one for all deaths of minors caused by negligence on the part of a homeowner. It’s specific to gun owners. Why do you consider this situation to be so special as to require it’s own law rather than any other potentially lethal items left lying around? Should we charge adults with a felony who let a kid borrow their car and crash it? How about if they have chemicals in the house? Or a pool? Why just go after the guns? There’s another huge problem with your ill conceived idea. Kids can own guns. What if I want to buy my 16 year old a .22 for rabbit hunting? Is that automatic negligence on my part? If he’s out hunting and decides to kill himself with it am I a felon now? It’s just a bad idea, born from the assumption that all guns are inherently evil and scary. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075/70 "2013-12-05T19:20:42Z")
Just a thought, when was the last time a civilian had to re-load a semi-automatic pistol in order to continue defending themself? Are there any instances of anyone needing 30 rounds from an assault rifle to defend themselves agains an aforementioned rampaging mob? I think the answer is probably 1) it hasn’t happened 2) no. Now I own a gun (I recently sold all but one), but I think that there are a whole lot of gun owners who have nice, expensive, dangerous toys who are using the defense argument so that they can ensure they get to keep their nice, expensive, dangerous toys. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075/71 "2013-12-05T19:35:20Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Yes, whatever. I’m sure if it’s their kid’s friend they’ll be fine and wont feel any guilt. > > :rolleyes: Accuracy deserves rolleyes? > [@Debaser](#): > > You mean, additional deterrent above the actual dead child? That’s not enough of a deterrent? Evidently not, no. > [@Debaser](#): > > For the most part, yes. If the adult in question didn’t actually do anything wrong or actually participate in the death somehow, there’s no point in charging them. Doing something wrong is an inherent part of criminal negligence. Otherwise, it’s just misfortune. > [@Debaser](#): > > You are the one who wants to make it special. The law you are requesting isn’t a general one for all deaths of minors caused by negligence on the part of a homeowner. It’s specific to gun owners. Why do you consider this situation to be so special as to require it’s own law rather than any other potentially lethal items left lying around? Causing the death of anyone through criminal negligence is already against the law. The law defines allowing access to a firearm to a minor who then misuses it as negligence. It’s a matter of definition, not a special class of offense. > [@Debaser](#): > > Should we charge adults with a felony who let a kid borrow their car and crash it? How about if they have chemicals in the house? Or a pool? Why just go after the guns? No; possibly, depending on the specifics; possibly, depending on the specifics. Again, criminal negligence is a real concept, not something I made up. > [@Debaser](#): > > There’s another huge problem with your ill conceived idea. Kids can own guns. What if I want to buy my 16 year old a .22 for rabbit hunting? Is that automatic negligence on my part? If he’s out hunting and decides to kill himself with it am I a felon now? The law only applies to minors under the age of 16, so no worries there. > [@Debaser](#): > > It’s just a bad idea, born from the assumption that all guns are inherently evil and scary. They aren’t evil, or scary. I own several. What they are is _dangerous_, and they should be treated accordingly. I certainly don’t leave loaded guns laying around where children can get them, and no gun owner who claims to be responsible should either. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075/72 "2013-12-05T19:37:47Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Just a thought, when was the last time a civilian had to re-load a semi-automatic pistol in order to continue defending themself? > > Are there any instances of anyone needing 30 rounds from an assault rifle to defend themselves agains an aforementioned rampaging mob? > > I think the answer is probably 1) it hasn’t happened 2) no. Now I own a gun (I recently sold all but one), but I think that there are a whole lot of gun owners who have nice, expensive, dangerous toys who are using the defense argument so that they can ensure they get to keep their nice, expensive, dangerous toys. Not sure why you are hung up on a semi auto reload, but here is a [recent case](http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/woman-hiding-kids-shoots-intruder/nTm7s/) where the home owner emptied a .38 revolver into a home intruder and his response was “quit shooting”. He got up and was later caught after he crashed his car. I bet she wished she had another shot or two due to a quick reload. [Here](http://www.khou.com/news/crime/Burglary-suspect-shot-by-15-year-old-son-of-deputy-97430719.html) is a case where a 15 year old defended himself and his sister from multiple intruders with an AR15. No idea how many rounds he held or fired. Since a 30 round mag is pretty much standard, its a safe guess that’s what he used. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075/73 "2013-12-05T19:44:12Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Just a thought, when was the last time a civilian had to re-load a semi-automatic pistol in order to continue defending themself? Probably today, or within the last couple of days. Statistically speaking. > [@](#): > > Are there any instances of anyone needing 30 rounds from an assault rifle to defend themselves agains an aforementioned rampaging mob? Sure. The LA Riots. The recent attack by the mob of bikers against the Range Rover family. Those are instances where not just one but multiple thirty round magazines would be useful. Even just against one or two attackers a thirty round mag is nice to have. Most homeowners and probably all concealed carry permit holders have only one mag. A lot of times ten rounds isn’t enough. Most shots miss. More than one hit is usually needed to stop someone. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075/74 "2013-12-05T19:44:37Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > You mean, additional deterrent above the actual dead child? That’s not enough of a deterrent? Obviously it isn’t, is it? Or have you not noticed that thousands of kids are shooting themselves with guns each year? > [@Debaser](#): > > Should we charge adults with a felony who let a kid borrow their car and crash it? How about if they have chemicals in the house? Or a pool? Why just go after the guns? What are you smoking? Parents are charged all the time when children die in accidents - charges ranging from neglect and child endangerment up to homicide. IANAL, but I believe that in general, parents are generally liable for the actions of their children (whether they are always actually charged or not is a separate issue). > [@](#): > > Kids can own guns. What if I want to buy my 16 year old a .22 for rabbit hunting? Is that automatic negligence on my part? If he’s out hunting and decides to kill himself with it am I a felon now? Reading comprehension not a strong suit, huh? Go back and read the actual law. It’s just a bad idea, born from the assumption that all guns are inherently evil and scary. [/quote] \*Guns are fucking dangerous. \*So please don’t be surprised when we want to hold you responsible for how they’re stored and used. > [@Debaser](#): > > Probably today, or within the last couple of days. Statistically speaking. Great! Then you should have no problem finding lots of recent articles on such events instead of going back to once-in-a-lifetime event that occurred more than 20 years ago. [/quote] > [@Debaser](#): > > Even just against one or two attackers a thirty round mag is nice to have. Most homeowners and probably all concealed carry permit holders have only one mag. A lot of times ten rounds isn’t enough. Most shots miss. More than one hit is usually needed to stop someone. Hmm, sounds dangerously like you’re saying that having a gun isn’t all that useful for protection? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075/75 "2013-12-05T19:46:47Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The law only applies to minors under the age of 16, so no worries there. What about a 15 year old then? > [@](#): > > They aren’t evil, or scary. I own several. What they are is _dangerous_, and they should be treated accordingly. I certainly don’t leave loaded guns laying around where children can get them, and no gun owner who claims to be responsible should either. But if a smart 15 year old in your household somehow got in to the locked guns and killed himself, do you think turning you into a felon is going to do any good? Would it matter to you over the terrible guilt you would already be feeling? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075/76 "2013-12-05T19:52:23Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Obviously it isn’t, is it? Or have you not noticed that thousands of kids are shooting themselves with guns each year? You really think that adding a legal punishment is more of a deterrent than the death of someone’s kids? That’s just silly on it’s face. There is exactly zero people alive who would say “I don’t care about my kids enough to lock up my gun now, but if they made it a felony were my kids to die I would lock them up.” > [@](#): > > What are you smoking? Parents are charged all the time when children die in accidents - charges ranging from neglect and child endangerment up to homicide. IANAL, but I believe that in general, parents are generally liable for the actions of their children (whether they are always actually charged or not is a separate issue). Yes, my point exactly. We already have laws in place for this when actual negligence is taking place. We don’t need special laws specifying exactly how guns should be treated. > [@](#): > > Reading comprehension not a strong suit, huh? Go back and read the actual law. Yes, it’s 16 and up, not 16 and younger. Congratulations on the gotcha. You certainly have me red in the face. Excuse me while I go hand my head in shame. My point is perfectly valid regardless of the age. What about a fifteen year old? That’s certainly old enough to own a gun of their own. I did at that age. > [@](#): > > \*Guns are fucking dangerous. \*So please don’t be surprised when we want to hold you responsible for how they’re stored and used. I Guns are way less dangerous than you think. Ladders kill a lot more people than guns. You don’t see such dedication to banning ladders, to pick just one of many things much more dangerous than guns. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075/77 "2013-12-05T19:53:48Z")
For the record, mods: I’m not misquoting **DragonAsh**. He changed his post while I was quoting him. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075/78 "2013-12-05T19:55:51Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Not sure why you are hung up on a semi auto reload Mostly because it will go bang more times than a revolver. Thank you for providing two interesting links that don’t serve as the examples I was speculating about. > [@Debaser](#): > > Probably today, or within the last couple of days. Statistically speaking. On what would those statistics be based? > [@Debaser](#): > > Sure. The LA Riots. The recent attack by the mob of bikers against the Range Rover family. Those are instances where not just one but multiple thirty round magazines would be useful. > > Even just against one or two attackers a thirty round mag is nice to have. Most homeowners and probably all concealed carry permit holders have only one mag. A lot of times ten rounds isn’t enough. Most shots miss. More than one hit is usually needed to stop someone. Ok…in case I wasn’t clear…I want a case where a person was defending themsef with an assault rifle, and had to reload. Ready? Go. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075/79 "2013-12-05T19:57:34Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Hmm, sounds dangerously like you’re saying that having a gun isn’t all that useful for protection? I’m not really familiar with your posting history. Is this all you’re about? Finding any obscure angle in someone’s post that you can twist beyond recognition into some sort of a gotcha? I’m saying quote clearly that a gun with a 30 round magazine is more effective at self defense than one with a ten round magazine. I’m not saying anything like the straw man you are posting. Got it? ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075/80 "2013-12-05T20:19:09Z")
[Actor Richard Dreyfuss: ‘NRA Should be Thought of…as Heroes’](http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/actor-richard-dreyfuss-nra-should-be-thought-ofas-heroes) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-agree-with-what-the-nra-says/675075.md?page=5)