# In which I am a crabby old goat about 'they/them' pronouns **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 6, 2017, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681 "2017-12-06T07:02:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/21 "2017-12-06T14:27:08Z")
In my work, I correspond with people and about people from all over the globe. Often, I am unable to reliably determine someone’s gender based solely on their name. So, I try to avoid pronouns wherever practical. I use whole names often as I figure that has less chance of being seen as too familiar. And, when I’m pressed, I use the singular they/them. I had previously been opposed. But, now it simplifies my life. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/22 "2017-12-06T14:45:58Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Consider: > > “Hi, I’m Sam. And, I like to be referred to with gender-neutral pronouns; they/them/their.” > > “No, I’m calling you her. Get over yourself.” Consider: "I celebrate Christmas. I expect you to say Merry Christmas, not ‘Happy Holidays’'. “No, I celebrate Festivus. Get over yourself (and Happy Holidays).” Am I being a jerk if I refuse to bend to the will of all who pressure me to say “Merry Christmas?” After all, in their eyes, it’s personal, important, and offensive if I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/23 "2017-12-06T14:55:19Z")
How does this even come up? I don’t get out much, but I’m quite sure no one has ever suggested to me what pronouns they prefer to be used when I speak of them. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/24 "2017-12-06T14:59:06Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > I agree. Calling a known defined individual “they” is stupid. If someone wants to pretend they don’t have a binary gender:dubious: then I will accede by using constructs like ze or “that person”. Don’t pretend to be 2 or more people. I know! I hate how kids these days are using the second person plural “you” to refer to a single person. We already have a perfectly good singular second person pronoun with “thou”. Soon, those kids won’t be able to tell if “you” is referring to a single or multiple people. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/25 "2017-12-06T15:03:36Z")
FTR, I agree with the majority of posts in this thread (nicely articulated by several people, but I will give a shout-out to **Eonwe** in post #15 as a particularly good example). To the extent there is a problem, it’s with English and languages like it that insist on gender distinctions at all times. Language does not have to be this way. In Indonesian, for example, the “he/she” pronoun does not vary by gender. You can say _dia_, or _ia_, or - if you want to be super respectful - _beliau_. There is no way to tell gender from any of those terms. It’s rather nice. Interestingly, my son’s first language was Indonesian (he was raised bilingual English-Indonesian, until we left Indonesia when he was 4 and he lost all his Indonesian - bah!), since it is easier to speak than English (no cases, tenses, or any of that crap that slows people down when they are learning English). For years afterward, long after he had become a monolingual English speaker, he had trouble distinguishing between “he” and “she.” Clearly, the non-gendered Indonesian approach made more sense in the linguistic “deep structure” of his brain. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/26 "2017-12-06T15:59:29Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > How does this even come up? I don’t get out much, but I’m quite sure no one has ever suggested to me what pronouns they prefer to be used when I speak of them. This for sure. Maybe it’s living in the country, but I’ve never encountered this either. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/27 "2017-12-06T16:21:02Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Using “They” to refer to a singular indefinite person is well established through centuries of literary English. Your “that’s how the language works”-argument is thus rather weak. I don’t think that’s what the OP is on about. They’re fine with that type of usage for an indeterminate person, so far as I read paragraph 5. But for a determinate person, they’re suggesting that it should be “he” or “she,” not “they.” I assume this is in reference to genderfluid individuals or any other non-binary gender identifications. Honestly, it’s not something I’ve come across or even thought about, so I don’t have an opinion other than it does feel a bit odd to me, since I have had no exposure to it. But given enough association with non-binary individuals, I’m sure I’d be able to get used to it as much as anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/28 "2017-12-06T16:36:59Z")
Consider the person who is not gender binary, or, any person actually. Perhaps they don’t want to be identified by their gender, even in speech. I equate it, at least loosely, to when I started using “Ms”, because my identity was larger than whether or not I was married. I don’t see the problem to acceding to their wishes and using a gender neutral pronoun to refer to them. ---
**Author:** ![Nisslbody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e36b37/32.png) [@Nisslbody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nisslbody)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/29 "2017-12-06T16:38:41Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > In my work, I correspond with people and about people from all over the globe. > Often, I am unable to reliably determine someone’s gender based solely on their name. > So, I try to avoid pronouns wherever practical. > I use whole names often as I figure that has less chance of being seen as too familiar. > And, when I’m pressed, I use the singular they/them. > I had previously been opposed. > But, now it simplifies my life. Likewise. I usually just use people’s names or them/they, until/unless they specify a preferred gendered pronoun. Frankly, the gender of the person I am referring to is almost never relevant to the conversation, so I’d just as soon use neutral pronouns for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/30 "2017-12-06T17:15:24Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I don’t think that’s what the OP is on about. They’re fine with that type of usage for an indeterminate person, so far as I read paragraph 5. But for a determinate person, they’re suggesting that it should be “he” or “she,” not “they.” I assume this is in reference to genderfluid individuals or any other non-binary gender identifications. Honestly, it’s not something I’ve come across or even thought about, so I don’t have an opinion other than it does feel a bit odd to me, since I have had no exposure to it. But given enough association with non-binary individuals, I’m sure I’d be able to get used to it as much as anything else. My post was unclear, especially since the OP includes historical use of they/them, which slipped my brain. I should have just written that he makes a ton of misguided and wrong assumptions in this argument, the major one being that someone preferring “they” is “being pretentious”. As he almost points out here, except using sex instead of gender, it’s appropriate to use they/them for someone who you don’t know the gender of: “_Yes, I recognize that this is ironic considering that I am posting this in an online forum where I mention my own sex rarely enough that ‘them’ is actually a rational way to refer to me._” Being so upset about some people not desiring to be defined in conversation by the nature of their genitals is in fact being antagonistic. And his penultimate sentence is bizarre, the post is already a rant. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/31 "2017-12-06T17:55:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The way I read the OP is the he (?) is willing to go along, more or less, but not if he slips up and people get all agro about it: > > Emphasis added. > > But I agree that the whole linguistic argument works against him (?). The ship has sailed\* on the use of singular they, so if the singular part bothers you, you’re fighting a losing battle. > > \*And “sailed” is proper since self-powered ships didn’t exist when this particular one left the harbor centuries ago. “She,” jftr. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/32 "2017-12-06T18:02:11Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > “She,” jftr. Missed the edit window: As far as the ship having sailed, I really think we’re in a state of flux wrt the use of singular “they” as a _definite_ pronoun. That’s stressful, particularly for people who have invested a lot of time and effort in both learning to read, and in learning to write for the benefit of people who prefer to read. It’s possible that we’ll one day agree on a set of neologisms to serve as gender-indefinite pronouns acceptable to those who desire them. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/33 "2017-12-06T18:09:05Z")
How are ey\* going to know what you call em\* when ou\* are speaking of em in the third person? That’s what’s hard to support. If we need an indeterminate human third-person pronoun we should all come together as a community of literate post-neo-contemporary thinkers and come up with one, by common usage, like we did for the Oughts, or the Aughts, or the 00ies, or whatever we came up with. _Ese_ are my pronouns. If you don’t like 'em I have others. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/34 "2017-12-06T19:01:22Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > How does this even come up? I don’t get out much, but I’m quite sure no one has ever suggested to me what pronouns they prefer to be used when I speak of them. [Here’s an example](http://www.cosmopolitan.com/lifestyle/a14106086/reverend-meghan-rohrer-vido/) that, coincidentally, just now showed up on my Facebook feed. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/35 "2017-12-06T19:15:18Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Consider: > > "I celebrate Christmas. I expect you to say Merry Christmas, not ‘Happy Holidays’'. > > “No, I celebrate Festivus. Get over yourself (and Happy Holidays).” > > Am I being a jerk if I refuse to bend to the will of all who pressure me to say “Merry Christmas?” After all, in their eyes, it’s personal, important, and offensive if I don’t. While it may seem similar in some ways, this example is pretty off the mark as far as analogies go. Just because someone is offended by something doesn’t mean in and of itself that you are wrong to have done it/said it. Saying ‘happy holidays’ to someone does not in any way call into question their beliefs, identity, or anything. You are not making a statement about another person (other than you wish them well) by saying ‘happy holidays’. If this imaginary person says, “you need to wish me a Merry Christmas,” well, I think we’d agree that there are many ways in which that demand is neither logical nor reasonable. We can unpack it more if you don’t agree, of course. It seems that there are only a few positions to take here: 1. There are only two genders, and therefore every human can be accurately described by she/he. Introducing other options is just a silly semantic game played by college kids who want to be rebellious. I refuse to use these made-up words. 2. There are only two genders, and therefore every human can be accurately described by she/he. But, I have no problem acquiescing to the wants of others with regards to the words I use to refer to them, even if they feel a bit silly. 3. There are only two genders, but I see value in and respect the idea that some people might want to build a context for themselves that is gender-free, and so have no problem acquiescing to the wants of others with regards to the words I use to refer to them, even if they feel a bit silly. 4. There are more than two genders. I have no problem acquiescing to the wants of others with regards to the words I use to refer to them. 5. There are more than two genders. I refuse to use non-gendered pronouns, however, because I don’t want other people to tell me what to do, and/or I believe that preserving gender binary in our language is more important than whatever the needs and wants of non male/female people might be. Am I missing something? Because too often this linguistic argument is clearly covering for an argument that there is no need for other pronouns because he and she are 100% accurate already. So let’s not pretend that this is about following language rules, or pretension, or anything like that. I think it would be fair to restate the OP as argument #1: gender-neutral pronouns are dumb _because there is no person who is accurately described by them_. It’s not a position on language, but a position on gender. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/36 "2017-12-06T19:32:37Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > FTR, I agree with the majority of posts in this thread (nicely articulated by several people, but I will give a shout-out to **Eonwe** in post #15 as a particularly good example). > > To the extent there is a problem, it’s with English and languages like it that insist on gender distinctions at all times. Language does not have to be this way. In Indonesian, for example, the “he/she” pronoun does not vary by gender. You can say _dia_, or _ia_, or - if you want to be super respectful - _beliau_. There is no way to tell gender from any of those terms. It’s rather nice. > > Interestingly, my son’s first language was Indonesian (he was raised bilingual English-Indonesian, until we left Indonesia when he was 4 and he lost all his Indonesian - bah!), since it is easier to speak than English (no cases, tenses, or any of that crap that slows people down when they are learning English). For years afterward, long after he had become a monolingual English speaker, he had trouble distinguishing between “he” and “she.” Clearly, the non-gendered Indonesian approach made more sense in the linguistic “deep structure” of his brain. I blame it on the proto-Indo-Europeans. They screwed us all over, and never had any respect for LGBTQA rights. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/37 "2017-12-06T20:16:36Z")
This reminds me of a very, very old complaint about people who overuse the word ‘we’. “Only royalty and people with tapeworms should use the word ‘we’ when speaking for themselves.” If it helps, you could speak of ‘them’ and think of ‘her and her microbiome’. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/38 "2017-12-06T20:35:23Z")
The number thing is the hardest for me get past. Consider: You have Mark (pronouns: him/he/his) and Taylor (pronouns: them/they/their) constantly disagreeing about what they will do as a couple, but agreeing to put it to a vote. HE votes “A,” while THEY vote “B.” “THEY vote” is going to outnumber “HE votes” every time. So Taylor ALWAYS wins. How is THAT fair? ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/39 "2017-12-06T21:14:13Z")
The singular use of they/them/their, while it may be long-established, has so thoroughly fallen out of common usage — just as much as thee/thou/thy — that it’s totally contrived and awkward to forcibly try bringing it back like this. If language is so flexible and evolving, why have we not yet evolved a neuter/ungendered personal pronoun (distinct from “it”, which is established as an _impersonal_ pronoun)? There have been attempts and suggestions for this for many years now, and none have ever gotten any traction. Why not work a little more seriously on developing that instead? Look, we have enough trouble with “you” being both singular and plural, that even on this board we often see awkwardisms like: you (generic you) can’t tell us what to say. Many people have adopted “youse” or “y’all” for the plural you, and this seems to be at least natural and commonly accepted. Why aren’t we bringing back thee/thou/thy? Using they/them/their for both singular and plural is a step in the wrong direction. Next thing, we’ll have to clarify whether “they” means they(singular) or they(generic they). Let’s not go down that road. ALSO: I wonder, and I’ve seen others ask, and I haven’t seen a generally accepted answer: When they/them/their is used as a singular third-person pronoun, what form of the present-tense verbs should we use? Have we met the enemy, and is they us? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/40 "2017-12-06T21:17:34Z")
Any issues with written language with these pronouns? I noticed maybe one in that article. But some point a sentence might be “Joe plays for the Yankees. They had a good year last year” Who does “they” refer to? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681.md?page=3)