# In which I am a crabby old goat about 'they/them' pronouns **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 6, 2017, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681 "2017-12-06T07:02:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/81 "2017-12-07T17:15:03Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > **kaylasdad99** feel more comfortable leaving an artifact that unambiguously places **kaylasdad99** ’s comments in the first person Sorry, my fault **kaylasdad99**! > [@](#): > > Stop oppressing **kaylasdad99**! Can \*\*kaylasdad99 \*\*use this in **kaylasdad99** ’s signature? Or can **manson1972**? It’s making \*\*manson1972 \*\*giggle at work. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/82 "2017-12-07T17:17:14Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > The singular use of they/them/their, while it may be long-established, has so thoroughly fallen out of common usage — just as much as thee/thou/thy — that it’s totally contrived and awkward to forcibly try bringing it back like this. > > If language is so flexible and evolving, why have we not yet evolved a neuter/ungendered personal pronoun (distinct from “it”, which is established as an _impersonal_ pronoun)? There have been attempts and suggestions for this for many years now, and none have ever gotten any traction. Why not work a little more seriously on developing that instead? > > Look, we have enough trouble with “you” being both singular and plural, that even on this board we often see awkwardisms like: you (generic you) can’t tell us what to say. Many people have adopted “youse” or “y’all” for the plural you, and this seems to be at least natural and commonly accepted. Why aren’t we bringing back thee/thou/thy? > > Using they/them/their for both singular and plural is a step in the wrong direction. Next thing, we’ll have to clarify whether “they” means they(singular) or they(generic they). Let’s not go down that road. > > ALSO: I wonder, and I’ve seen others ask, and I haven’t seen a generally accepted answer: When they/them/their is used as a singular third-person pronoun, what form of the present-tense verbs should we use? Have we met the enemy, and is they us? Well said. I don’t think there’d be much of an issue if we could come up with a different word.The article in **Thudlow’s** link was just clunky and kind of unpleasant to read (not the subject matter, just the use of “they”). Maybe we, or at least I, just need more exposure to the usage. I’m willing to keep an open mind but at this point it makes for an awkward read, ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/83 "2017-12-07T17:17:14Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/84 "2017-12-07T17:18:15Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Sorry, my fault **kaylasdad99**! > > Can \*\*kaylasdad99 \*\*use this in **kaylasdad99** ’s signature? Or can **manson1972**? It’s making \*\*manson1972 \*\*giggle at work. Go for it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/85 "2017-12-07T17:18:18Z")
Now that we’ve shown why ridiculous extremes almost never work, can we move on? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/86 "2017-12-07T17:20:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Now that we’ve shown why ridiculous extremes almost never work, can we move on? \*\*manson1972 \*\*don’t consider it ridiculous. Stop oppressing **manson1972**! ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/87 "2017-12-07T17:22:16Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Sorry, but your lack of comfort with new grammatical structures should not be a concern when respecting other people’s wishes on how they would like to be addressed. No, but motive should be a concern. Your argument is akin to the “What if I want to marry my dog?”-argument against same sex marriage. It’s a “if this norm doesn’t apply, no norms should apply”-argument, and as with the bestiality argument it ignores the reality of the original issue and the _real_ people involved, in favor of an imaginary reality. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/88 "2017-12-07T17:24:39Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > \*\*manson1972 \*\*don’t consider it ridiculous. Stop oppressing **manson1972**! manson1972, is either stupid or disingenuous and trolling, and should just go off and bugger manson1972self. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/89 "2017-12-07T17:26:04Z")
> [@naita](#): > > No, but motive should be a concern. Your argument is akin to the “What if I want to marry my dog?”-argument against same sex marriage. It’s a “if this norm doesn’t apply, no norms should apply”-argument, and as with the bestiality argument it ignores the reality of the original issue and the _real_ people involved, in favor of an imaginary reality. Not true. I fully embrace the rights of people to not be comfortable with the current gender-heavy pronouns that are in use. And I fully support their choices of which pronouns they want used to describe themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/90 "2017-12-07T17:29:59Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > \*\*manson1972 \*\*don’t consider it ridiculous. Stop oppressing **manson1972**! Whatever. :rolleyes: Getting back to the subject, I suspect that I would remember a person’s personal pronouns in about the same amount of time it would take me to remember that person’s personal name. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/91 "2017-12-07T17:30:08Z")
I’m of the opinion that he’s just having some fun with it (unfortunately driving it into the ground in the process). The source of my opinion? If he really doesn’t find it a ridiculous extreme, there’s no plausible reason for him to have been giggling. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/92 "2017-12-07T17:30:57Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Not true. I fully embrace the rights of people to not be comfortable with the current gender-heavy pronouns that are in use. And I fully support their choices of which pronouns they want used to describe themselves. Treating the discussion of the issue as a joke isn’t very supportive. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/93 "2017-12-07T17:44:32Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I’m of the opinion that he’s just having some fun with it (unfortunately driving it into the ground in the process). The source of my opinion? If he really doesn’t find it a ridiculous extreme, there’s no plausible reason for him to have been giggling. I find this whole OP to be ridiculous. In the sense of why does someone care what pronouns other people want? What difference does it make to the OP or anyone if they say “he” or “she” or “xe” or whatever? Personally, I don’t know anyone who wants different than the historical pronouns. But if I did, what harm is it to me to say “xe” instead of “she”? None whatsoever. And if I couldn’t remember which one to use, I would just use their name. Every day we are inching closer to war, and people are mad about learning a new pronoun? Friggin’ ridiculous. I was giggling at that specific phrase, not the use or non-use of pronouns. Something about it struck me as funny, that’s all. The answer to the OP should have been everyone saying “shut up. learn a new pronoun. it’s not a big deal” ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/94 "2017-12-08T04:51:03Z")
ok, I got one. “xzhe” Must be said with a gagging/horking-up-phlegm sound similar to speaking Hebrew or French, ending in a sort of “eeee-ay” kinda thing. Please, practice it. I’m still working on the def but I’ll go now with a non-cis-gendered “they” countered by an X/Y “them” when inflected on its own. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/95 "2017-12-09T01:56:35Z")
I do totally understand that using singular they is awkward. It’s new. Yes, we’ve used it for an indeterminate person for a long time, but using it for a determinate person is new. But, the thing is, that’s the only pronoun that has stuck for the non-binary. It’s not like people haven’t tried other pronouns. But they were new words, and so no one would use them. The fact that singular they has a history made it much easier to get adopted into normal usage. So any suggestion that we should just create another pronoun is misguided. That was already tried and failed. Just google “gender neutral pronouns” to see all the examples that no one uses. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/96 "2017-12-09T02:01:19Z")
As for those acting like people should just accept “he” or “she.” That’s as much misgendering them as saying a trans woman is actually a man who thinks he’s a woman or a trans man is a woman who thinks she’s a man. You are saying that the person is actually male or female, rather than being non-binary. I see no reason that this would not be just as hurtful. I see no reason it’s not the same as a gay person being told they aren’t really gay. Or, to relate it more to the white hetcis male demo: what about someone making fun of you and calling you a sissy or girl because you don’t live up to manly ideals? So, even if you find it awkward, why is that supposed to be more important than these other people? Do you think having to use a word you’re not used to is worse than having someone tell you that you’re not really the gender or sexuality you say you are? I find it awkward, too, sometimes. I’m a fan of a webcomic that has just introduced an enby (N.B., aka non-binary) character. It can be a bit difficult to talk about them while not including the other people in the comic. But I know there are enby readers and so I do my best to do it right. It’s not about me. It’s about them. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/97 "2017-12-09T02:32:13Z")
“hetcis”? Is that the new term? ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/98 "2017-12-10T05:48:45Z")
Slippery slope arguments be damned… You know, it’s just a matter of time before furries start squawking about species-specific pronouns. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/99 "2017-12-23T03:49:33Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > But, the thing is, that’s the only pronoun that has stuck for the non-binary. It’s not like people haven’t tried other pronouns. But they were new words, and so no one would use them. The fact that singular they has a history made it much easier to get adopted into normal usage. Right. Those new pronouns failed for a simple reason: They were trying to solve a solved problem. And to drag this back to the ostensible original topic, I’m somewhat of a grumpy traditionalist when it comes to language, which is why I thunder against prescriptivism: Not because it’s pedantic, but because it’s _innovative_, and quite badly so! You have a language that’s been evolving for thousands of years, in one form or another, and now some crop of prescriptivists wants to graft it to a distant cousin in the same extended family tree. Why? Because that cousin is Latin, and fashionable, and the prescriptivists are so pig-ignorant and status-proud they cannot _conceive of the notion_ that English _wouldn’t_ be improved by fusing it, monstrously, with a different language entirely, creating a Minotaur abomination where splitting an infinitive is something to be abhorred. Utter ignorance, made worse by pretensions to antiquity. It’s the same story with the singular they, really. It’s a member in good standing in the English language, unfairly and idiotically singled out by people who wouldn’t know a gerund from a genitive and who honestly believe that their innovative rules are traditional and the _actual observed usage_ is evidence of decay. They don’t have history on their side, they certainly don’t have science or evidence on their side, so they shit on the board and parade around like they won the damn game. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2017, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681/100 "2017-12-24T02:01:48Z")
Re ‘This person is insisting that they are in fact multiple’ They are insisting no such thing. They are stating that hem/hir, xe, zir etc never caught on as alternate pronouns never caught on and that for various reasons they do not want be referred to by either masculine or feminine pronouns. This is not the royal plural and not pretension. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-am-a-crabby-old-goat-about-they-them-pronouns/803681.md?page=6)