# In which I attempts dialogue with evangelical Christians **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 6, 2002, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623 "2002-05-06T21:32:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/21 "2002-05-07T16:59:29Z")
I agree that sin is what separates man from God. My question still stands: _how_ does homosexuality do this? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/22 "2002-05-07T17:24:04Z")
I woke up this morning, having read the latest doses of public figures explaining how Jesus hates homosexuality – at least two Florida politicians, the self-proclaimed Pastor of the Westboro Baptist Church, Topeka, KS, demonstrating in favor of the Chief Judge of Alabama’s Supreme Court and his bigotry, and realized that it was time (again) to speak out as a Christian who loves gays. (I know you excluded me from the people you asked the OP to, **Hamish** , but since **Mangetout** felt free to respond, so do I. First, you are my beloved brother, as are **Esprix, matt\_mcl, Freyr, gobear** and the others, and as **andygirl** and the others are my beloved sisters. Second, it’s extremely clear from the words of Jesus Himself that God loves _all_ people, and makes no bones about their gender, race, age, eye color, previous state of servitude, ethnic origin, or sexual orientation, or anything else that ingenious man can come up to draw lines between “us” and “them.” I affirm you as a human being whom God loves _just as you are_, and whom I love as well. I am one unemployed administrative assistant in a small town in North Carolina, active member of an Episcopal (Anglican) church and redeemed by the grace of Christ, with no right to speak other than what He gives me as an individual. But I am so disgusted by people hating other people in the name of Christ that it’s necessary that I speak out. To try to answer your questions: > [@](#): > > a) Why are the prohibitions against homosexuality considered in effect, while most of the laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy (such as the dietary regulations) are ignored by Christians? **Monty** and others have handled this well. Effectively, evangelical Christians believe that the Law is still in effect for those who turn to God, but that while the ritual and dietary laws were lifted by revelations to Peter and others (e.g., the anonymous author of Hebrews), the moral law remains in place and is binding. (Note that this covers much more than the prohibition on (male) homosexual activity, but that seems to be a major emphasis on their part for some reason. It’s important for you to realize what the meaning of “sin” to a Christian is – because there’s Scripture that “all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” Quite simply, if one turns to Christ and accepts Him as one’s Lord, the job becomes to follow His commands as ideals – to love God with one’s total being, to love every other man as oneself, to be perfect as God Himself is perfect, to refrain from judging as you yourself fear that judgment, and so on. Being human, we fall short of those ideals, every one of us, and God, who loves us as a perfect Father loves his children, forgives and helps strengthen to avoid further sin. Most intelligent evangelicals realize that if sexual orientation is not chosen, then it is not sinful – but since they’re bound by the idea of the Law as still in effect and the idea that if the Bible says thus and so, it must therefore be the Word of God that thus and so is true and binding on people, homosexual **acts** are still sinful, and the gay person is expected to live a life of celibacy – unless, of course, he is capable of making a heterosexual marriage and satisfying his desires with his wife. (And of course read “she” and “her husband” for the Lesbian.) For most of us liberal types, as was already noted, we have enough problems trying to measure up to those ideals ourselves – and are commanded to love you and all people, and to show Christ through our love for you and all people, and not to judge you. So whatever I might personally think about your sexuality, it’s quite frankly none of my business. I will add that for me and **Homebrew** , and for others hither and yon (but I happen to know **Homebrew** agrees with my take on this, the prohibitions on gay sex both in Leviticus and in Paul are mixed in with a variety of other sins which are in effect giving vent to _lust_ (and in a couple of place others of the Seven Deadly Sins). So on our interpretation, if God made you and caused or allowed you to be gay (in orientation) without your choice, and He condemns gratifying lust but approves of a covenanted marriage and of sex in marriage, then clearly the prohibition is against your going out and cruising, not against your falling in love and marrying the man you decide to spend your life with. (And I note that Quebec is in the process of permitting you to do so legally; congratulations.) In short, you can sin by having gay sex, just as you can sin by having straight sex or by being uncharitable or cheating a customer or being a loan shark or any other sort of thing – but there’s at least a way in which you can have a happy, fulfilled life that includes a loving life partner – including sex partner – to share your life with. But, unfortunately, most evangelical Christians don’t see it in those terms – being “immured in the gay lifestyle,” you obviously (to them) cannot have the same feelings as they do towards someone they love. (Don’t get me started!) > [@](#): > > b) Do you make a distinction between homosexuality within a monogamous relationship versus promiscuity, or are they all the same thing to you? Does the fact that I have a boyfriend matter? Do you recognize that we love as well as have sex? How do you feel about gay marriage? I’ve always found it strange that I’m told I’m promiscuous, but can’t marry. As you may note from my marathon answer to (a), yes, I do draw that distinction. But I don’t judge whether anyone else’s sex life is sinful. I was merely trying to give an idea how _I_ would evaluate the moral situation if I were in your shoes, by way of guidance and information – and if you did find Christ, counseling as a brother and friend. I personally do get all that you point out, including that you can love another man, and approve wholeheartedly of marriage in general, including that between two gay people. And I’m alive and aware to the irony implicit in your last comment. > [@](#): > > c) How do you feel about anti-gay violence? I recently met a gay man who considered himself Christian, and before he came out had been involved in gay-bashings. Fred Phelps website happily proclaims that Matthew Shepherd has been burning in hell for (as of today) 1303 days. First, even the people who are vehemently opposed to gay rights among conservative Christians denounce Fred Phelps and his hatred. To quote a friend in the religious right, “I wish that all gay people would see the light and turn from their sinful ways to God’s love, but I cannot abide anybody like Phelps who says that God hates them.” Nearly all of them are opposed to anti-gay violence, but most of them compartmentalize their views enough that they don’t see that condemning gay people as evil and sinful _leads_ in the minds of some people to the idea that gay-bashing is OK. And, of course, I’m steadfast against it. One of the two things that’s made me so outspoken on gay rights was an incident in my recent life. Growing up, I was always the small, geeky kid picked on by others, and am not a particularly large man – on the small side of normal, short and until recently skinny. Just after we moved to NC, Matthew Shepherd was killed. Before returning to Wyoming, Matt had attended college in NC and lived in Raleigh. The following week, the _Independent Weekly_ (alternative weekly newspaper here, similar to the Chicago Reader) ran a memoir by a gay staff member who had been friends with him. I picked up the paper and read the article sitting at a bar table nursing a drink – and discovered that Phil had written about sitting and talking with Matt. At that bar. At that table. “There but for the grace of God go I.” And Martin Niemoeller’s line about “They came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up, because I was not a Jew” repeated for anyone that gets discriminated against. Right then I knew I was being called to do things like, ultimately, speak out on threads like this one, and lobby for gay rights, and whatever else I can do. > [@](#): > > d) Would you disown a child who came out as gay/lesbian/bisexual? Would you forbid your child to have a gay/lesbian/bisexual friend? Absolutely not, to both things. My foster son, now adult, has a five-year-old boy whom I suspect is (will be) gay, and whom I love intensely and unconditionally. I think part of my destiny will be to be there for him when he reaches puberty and comes out. And I would _encourage_ any children we might have had to befriend GLBT youths, because they are often isolated and need friends. > [@](#): > > e) Personal beliefs aside, how do you feel about the laws? Do you keep your religious beliefs separate? Do you think homosexuality is immoral, but should be legal? I’m for equality under the law, for gay rights, and don’t keep my religious beliefs separate, because I’m pledged by the Baptismal Covenant of my church “to respect the dignity of every human being and to seek justice for all men.” And “homosexuality” is an abstract noun – homosexual activity, not limited to sex, may or may not be immoral depending on circumstances but should not be restricted by law (other than a prohibition on doing it in the streets and scaring the horses!;)) > [@](#): > > f) How do you feel about transsexuality? I’ve always assumed the attitude was hostile, but I can’t imagine the Scriptural precedant for it. Well, Eve (the woman in Genesis, not the poster) started life as the rib of a man, so the story goes. Hmmm— is history repeating itself? 😉 I understand how a man could be attracted to another man far better than how a man could internally feel himself to _be_ a woman (or the reverse, in each case) despite the somatic evidence suggesting otherwise, but I have no problem with people who do feel that way, just a problem of stretching my empathy to “grok their condition.” And I’m surely not hostile about it. > [@](#): > > g) I believe that homosexuality, bisexuality, and heterosexuality are all inborn. If science comes to the same conclusion, would that make a difference for you? Or would it simply be another animal drive to be repressed, like heterosexual desire outside of marriage? Polycarp’s Moral Law: You do what you feel to be the right thing to do, yourself, and avoid trying to run somebody else’s life, because you’re having enough trouble with your own. I don’t much care whether the origin of homosexuality is genetic, congenital (flood of hormones theory), inculcated in early childhood, or results from eating too many jujubes before one’s fourth birthday. People are who they are, and it’s my job to accept them and love them, not change them. Final comment, having seen the last few posts: **Puddleglum** , without any intent to hassle you personally, I think **Steve Wright** ’s question is important. Please do a step-by-step analysis of the thinking behind this, because I don’t understand the A-implies-B theory held by you and others who think like you, and I thought I had a pretty good handle on the idea of sin in evangelical thought. > [@](#): > > I agree that sin is what separates man from God. My question still stands: how does homosexuality do this? ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/23 "2002-05-07T17:35:06Z")
Steve, it separates you from God, if you let someone convince you that God does not want you. Please don’t do that. I don’t think you should let anyone tell you God does not want you. Puddleglum has an opinion, and he has reasons for holding it. Some of those reasons may be because of his faith, and some of them may be because of his prejudices, but you cannot know which. That doesn’t matter. He is not God, and has no authority to speak on God’s behalf. Sin begets fear, and fear can drive you from God. But almost everything you do, aside from giving of yourself to others without desire for recompense is sin. There are no perfect souls, and imperfections are not ranked. Whether your sexual feelings, or actions are sins is not something someone else can judge, because they don’t know your heart. Driving you from the Lord is not their office. That job has been reserved for Satan, and his servants. My task, as a Christian is not to sit in judgment over you, but to join you, as a fellow human, frail, and filled with iniquity, and seek God together. My opinion on your worthiness, or sinfulness is of no importance at all, unless it happens to lead me away from the Lord, in which case it could well destroy me, forever. ## Tris “Lord, give me patience. Um, Lord, I need that patience now, please.” ~ Triskadecamus ~ ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/24 "2002-05-07T17:39:26Z")
Tris, that was beautiful. (And said perfectly in three paragraphs what I took about 20 to say limpingly.) ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/25 "2002-05-07T17:48:03Z")
I have a ghastly feeling I’m misleading people with my stance here… I’m a practising Christian (even an evangelical one, with a small “e”) and heterosexual. (According to a gay friend of mine, _obviously_ heterosexual.) My question to **puddleglum** is, from my point of view, entirely theoretical. But it still stands, and I think it’s important to have the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/26 "2002-05-07T17:54:56Z")
Poly, If you limp, please know, where you have limped, others are well served to run, and even dance. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/27 "2002-05-07T18:02:36Z")
Steve, Well, my feelings are pretty much the same, if you are stratight, or gay, Christian, or Wiccan. Let us love God, and each other, 'cause we want to! Puddle, Please, when you answer the man, consult your heart, as well as your head, before you reply. And don’t hold it against him that he isn’t gay. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/28 "2002-05-07T19:01:31Z")
Tris, my stance (which seems to be less than satisfactory to all concerned but not enough to flame me) is that, while the unborn fetus may in fact be a human being, actually or potentially, with whatever rights may accrue to him or her in that state, it is _the moral decision of the woman herself_ whether or not to carry him/her to term – not something that should be legislated. I would encourage a pregnant woman to carry her child to term _if she asked me for my opinion_, because I believe that that possible baby does have a right to live and that giving him/her life is her moral duty – but I would never be party to **forcing** her to do so, and would stand against those who would try to. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/29 "2002-05-07T19:07:17Z")
Huh. The above post from me was in response to a post on abortion by **Triskadecamus** that was here when I began a response. Although it looked like a bit of a hijack, I assumed that it was a side issue someone had raised – it being another case of a sexual morality issue, more or less. If a moderator moved **Tris** ’s post to a thread where it was intended to go, would he or she be so kind as to make mine follow? ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/30 "2002-05-07T19:19:00Z")
Actually, **puddleglum** pretty much sums up my theory on why most folks in general disapprove\* of homosexuality: > [@](#): > > Its icky. My response, of course, is to get over it, but few take my advice, so I choose to educate instead. Esprix \*Rather like, to quote one of **matt** ’s favorite quotes, “disapproving of rain,” but there it is. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/31 "2002-05-07T19:37:11Z")
Ha ha, Poly! I fell to the evil demons of multiple window posting. I asked that it be deleted here, and then posted a cut and paste in the Bald eagles versus baby thread. I don’t know if moderators, with all their mystic power can actually move a post or not. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/32 "2002-05-07T19:43:30Z")
“Actually, puddleglum pretty much sums up my theory on why most folks in general disapprove\* of homosexuality . . .” Hey—I’M icky! You’re sinful. Let’s keep this, umm, “straight” here, Esprix! ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/33 "2002-05-07T20:00:28Z")
Yes, but you’re icky in a sinful sort of way, you ravashing temptress you. 😉 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/34 "2002-05-07T20:14:26Z")
Yes, well, I can’t argue with you THERE . . . ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/35 "2002-05-07T21:03:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*The short answer is that many Christian groups feel that only what they call the _moral laws_ of the Old Testament remain in effect. Thus, the dietary laws, not being considered as relating to morality, are irrelevant. Those Christians who think homosexuality is immoral will ascribe the status of “moral law” to the interpreted prohibition in the Old Testament. \*\* I can see that the dietary laws are perhaps a bad example, given Acts 10 of the New Testement, but I have to wonder about other sins that aren’t sins any longer. For most of its history, the Christian world was dead set against usury – the loaning of money at interest. Dante’s _Inferno_ puts usurers side by side with sodomites in a single circle of hell. Luke 6:35 seems to have Christ condemning usury. Christ never mentions homosexuality, IIRC. The only mention of it in the NT is a comment of Paul’s, _in passim_, in Romans. What changed? Is it still a sin? If so, why doesn’t anyone make a fuss about it? The banking industry is omnipresent, and growing in power all the time. There’re no protests, there are no attempts to make banking illegal, bankers generally aren’t told they’re going to hell. Has a Christian parent, in living memory, disowned a child who decided to become a banker? Why is there no [god-hates-bankers.com](http://god-hates-bankers.com)? And if it isn’t still a sin, what does that say about how the perception that homosexuality is sinful? Is it simply a _cultural_ prejudice being given a religious mask? ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/36 "2002-05-07T21:24:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Triskadecamus \* > \*\*People don’t need religion to hate that which is different than themselves. People don’t need much help hating at all, in fact. Please don’t hate Christians because they hate you. Not because Christians deserve not to be hated, but because you deserve not to hate. > \*\* Thanks. That’s actually part of the reason I started this thread. What worries me even more, though, are those who’ve been taught to hate themselves. I spent one-and-a-half years as a peer counsellor, and I now find myself cast into that role, informally, very often. I hear the same stories constantly (using first initials to protect anonymity). D. – who oscillates between self-flagellating repentence and drug-and-sex binges, which he regrets afterwards. He’s come close to a relationship several times, but refuses to enter one, because he would see that as a futile attempt to legitimize a sin. He was taught that homosexuality is wrong under any circumstances, and people who try to legitimize it are lying to themselves. P. – who’s gotten married as two children becuase he’s terrified to come out to his very religious parents. He sneaks out and has sex in saunas. He lives a life of increasingly-intricate lies. B. – whose father beat him repeatedly when he came out, and for the longest time he stayed at home, because he thought he deserved it, that he was a sinner. A few representative stories, but I’ve known dozens of other cases that were slight variations on these themes. Most of the people I’ve known have either left Christianity or continued their downward spiral. What do I say to people who don’t want to do either, but who can’t find any way to resolve their Christianity with their sexual orientation? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/37 "2002-05-07T22:06:23Z")
I recently had a conversation/debate with one of my brethren about if and how we should react on that day that a homosexual couple stroll into the church and sit down; it was quite interesting. Firstly, I think it’s a pretty much universal doctrine amongst evangelicals that sin is sin and there isn’t really a scale of seriousness. So even accepting that homosexuality (of any kind) is sinful, we must conclude that the only real difference between the homosexual couple that stroll in and the middle-class family that they sit next to is our awareness of (what we percieve to be) their sin (assuming, perhaps a little shakily, for the moment that there is some obvious way to tell that the homosexual people are such). So the gay people are sinful and are to be treated differently because we are _aware_ of (what we percieve to be) their sin, whereas the middle-class family are respectable because they do most of their sinning in private and cover their tracks very well? No, I’m not having that; it’s unacceptable; we say that God is omni-everything and then act as if he needs _our_ help in deciding who is righteous? bah! Sorry, that’s not a job I have time for. ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/38 "2002-05-08T00:55:37Z")
QUOTE]\*Originally posted by Homebrew \* \*\*Here’s a link to different groups and their positions, both affirming and anti-gay: [http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/resesrch\_homosexuality\_religion.html](http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/resesrch_homosexuality_religion.html) There are gay-supportive movements inside many of the mainline Christian demoninations. Following the link above, I was surpised - shocked really - to find out that there are even a few among the more evangelical groups, including [Pentecostal](http://www.reconcilingpentecostals.com/). \*\* [/QUOTE] Thanks. The quotes helped, but they raised just as many questions as they answered. I followed one trail of linked pages to a site refuting the various claims made by Christians who feel homosexual sex is immoral. Among the most interesting arguments: a) While some evangelical Christians split the Leviticus/Deuteronomy laws into ceremonial, civil, and moral, this division is not made in the Bible. The guy who wrote this [site](http://www.whosoever.org/bible/index.html) suggested that Christ’s covenant was an entirely new one, and none of the original laws applied. b) The terms generally translated as “sodomite” or “pervert,” and even the famous exhortation in Leviticus use words that could be better translated as “temple prositute” (“Qadesh,” for instance) c) In the story of Sodom, and the very similar story in Judges, the crime involved is not homosexuality, but inhospitality. I’m curious how those Christians who feel homosexuality is wrong respond to these arguments. Are they valid? Have you heard them before? ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/39 "2002-05-08T06:08:09Z")
\*\*Polycarp wrote: First, you are my beloved brother, as are Esprix, matt\_mcl, Freyr, gobear and the others, and as andygirl and the others are my beloved sisters. \*\* Thanks, **Polycarp** , it’s always nice to read this. 🙂 **…and realized that it was time (again) to speak out as a Christian who loves gays.** I need to engage in a slight hi-jack here. To the moderate and liberal Christians here on SDMB, I see a problem. It is not the loudness of those who identify as Fundamentalist or conservative Christians, it’s the quietness of those who aren’t. It’s fine to sit here on SDMB and debate the issues, but the real battle is out **THERE** in the real world. Everytime some member of the Fundamentalist or conservative camp raises his or her voice decrying homosexuality in the national or local press, where’s the voice of the moderate or liberal Christians? The silence can be deafening at times. Agreed, sensationalism makes news and the Fundamentalists and conservatives can do that very well (thank you, Fred Phelps!). But if they can do it, so can you! The next time the Fundamentalist and/or conservative Christians make the news, call or write the editor or news manager. Demand that they give you equal time. Implore them to show BOTH sides of the issue. Don’t let the Fundamentalists and/or conservatives allow themselves to be the only voice for the many Christian churches. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/40 "2002-05-08T13:11:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Padeye \* > \*\*Hamish, I extend an invitation to come to my church, Faith Lutheran in Phoenix. We are part of the ELCA, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. We are a reconciled in Christ congregation. That means we accept everyone that wants to worship and commune with us. Your sexual orientation, gender identity, marital status or former religious affiliation don’t matter to us. We won’t try to fix you or change you because you aren’t broken. \*\* Thanks for the offer, but I’ll have to take your word for it. Phoenix is a little hard to travel to by foot from Montreal, and I really don’t have the money to travel right now 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623.md?page=3)