# In which I attempts dialogue with evangelical Christians **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 6, 2002, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623 "2002-05-06T21:32:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2002, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/101 "2002-05-13T19:54:17Z")
Thanks, **Hamish**. I suspect that you, as much as anybody, knows what a word of encouragement can mean. I needed it, and you came through. **matt\_mcl** , would you please deliver him a great big {{{{hug}}}} from me? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2002, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/102 "2002-05-13T20:17:38Z")
Some background on Bishop Parsley of Alabama’s statement: [http://www.geocities.com/privacylaws/usa/alabama/alnews10.htm](http://www.geocities.com/privacylaws/usa/alabama/alnews10.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/103 "2002-05-14T15:31:24Z")
At the risk of monopolizing this thread, I realized something this morning and feel like I ought to post it. **Puddleglum** has very sincere beliefs, including a sense that effectively the world is morally headed for Hell in a handbasket, but is not usually one to state them in any offensive manner. He responded to the questions of the OP as requested, giving the perspective of the sort of person which **Hamish** had asked to respond. Many of us took his responses as the jumping-off point for a GD on the issues he raised. That’s fine, but in doing so I believe we mistook **Puddleglum** ’s statements for debatable assertions, when I think they were intended to give **Hamish** the perspective he’d asked for. So for whatever offense I’ve caused you, **Puddleglum** , in attempting to debate the issues behind your answers, I do offer my apologies. But I really wish you’d address the objections I raised, anyway. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/104 "2002-05-14T17:18:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*Many of us took his responses as the jumping-off point for a GD on the issues he raised. That’s fine, but in doing so I believe we mistook **Puddleglum** ’s statements for debatable assertions, when I think they were intended to give **Hamish** the perspective he’d asked for. > \*\* That was precisely it. Originally, I conceived this as a GQ thread, but I didn’t expect it to stay there, long. And it seemed a tad too serious for an IMHO thread. But I really did intend it as more of survey. Of course, that didn’t stop me from jumping into the debate myself. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/105 "2002-05-14T19:51:17Z")
Three pages in might be a little late to enter the fray. My apologies. I’m a lesbian Methodist. It’s not something that I talk about very much here (or anywhere else for that matter) because my faith is something that I struggle with regularly. I feel like a faith that isn’t questioned and examined is no faith at all, but that’s a bit of a tangent. Oh, and the fact that the SDMB has so many Christians that clearly outgun me. 😉 The reason that I don’t talk about being a gay Christian very much is largely due to cowardice. I felt like I was caught between a crossfire- so very many gay people have been rejected by the institution of Christianity as well as many of its followers that the idea of a gay Christian is difficult. It’s like being a gay Republican. Yes, we exist, but it’s a bit odd because we’re working within the larger context of a system that largely despises us. Which brings me to the Christians. I know many tolerant Christians. My minister is one. But if you listen to the vocal people- I have no idea how much of the population truely is fundamentalist Christian, or how much of the population is homophobic- their voices are the loudest, and it’s a constant grind. This might sound odd, but faith is much more personal to me than sexuality. I’m a very vocal gay rights activist and I have been since my early teens. But Christians don’t really need a civil rights movement, and talking about “the God Stuff” is just… well, it’s hard to explain, but I feel that religion is extremely private. The way that I relate my faith to the world around me is probably best summed up by how I feel about abortion. I don’t think abortion is morally right, and my objection to it is based on my religion. Be that as it may, I also feel that my religion shouldn’t dictate what others should do. I don’t think Methodism is the One True Path. It’s the denomination that I was raised in and it’s the one that, upon reflection, I have chosen to believe. If I’d been raised in a different denomination I would probably be that one unless they were so clearly homophobic that it was intolerable. I lucked out- Methodism is in the middle ground on homosexuality. Being a Christian is something that I chose, being a lesbian isn’t. I think that the distinction might help explain how I feel about public and private life. I could sit here and list the things that I do and don’t think about Christianity, but it’s probably not necessary. I’m your standard issue liberal Christian in most ways. I went through a very homophobic phase a bit before I came out of the closet. I was becoming friends with fundamentalists, and the idea of the whole thing was intoxicating. I was trying to run away from who I really was; I was trying to be the perfect straight girl. When I first started realizing that I was gay I would pray to be made straight every night until I fell asleep from exhaustion. When nothing changed- and I tried, I tried so hard- I then attempted to kill myself. I was a wreck on a variety of different levels, and the single thing that saved me was the moonlight reflecting off of the knife blade. I don’t know why- it’s hard to explain these things- but I felt like I wasn’t alone then. Things went uphill from there. So in time the realization came that either there was no God or I wasn’t being made straight because, well, I was made who I am. Option B was really the only option- as much as I believe in science and all of those things, there is a part of me that desparately needs to believe. Like I said, that’s a choice. Me being gay isn’t. I hope that explains a bit of where I’m coming from. On to some of the questions. > [@](#): > > a) Why are the prohibitions against homosexuality considered in effect, while most of the laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy (such as the dietary regulations) are ignored by Christians? Gay people are good scapegoats at the moment. All of the other historical ones have been removed to a certain extent- a politician cannot talk about those immoral Negros, but can denounce sodomy to thundering applause. It’s hypocracy and the need for a victim, IMHO. > [@](#): > > b) Do you make a distinction between homosexuality within a monogamous relationship versus promiscuity, or are they all the same thing to you? Does the fact that I have a boyfriend matter? Do you recognize that we love as well as have sex? How do you feel about gay marriage? I’ve always found it strange that I’m told I’m promiscuous, but can’t marry. Reflexive values again. I feel that my religion doesn’t condone promiscuity, and I have chosen to follow this religion. Therefore I will not be promiscuous. In my relationship with my last girlfriend, she and I dated for just over three years and were sexually active for most of that. We were in love, we were having sex. Despite that it is over now, I don’t regret anything that happened during it and I certainly don’t regret that we expressed our love for each other physically. You, however, can do what you please. Hopefully more than once on any given night. 😉 And gays should be able to get married. This is the activist speaking here- society shouldn’t just allow the ones who clean up well their rights. > [@](#): > > c) How do you feel about anti-gay violence? I recently met a gay man who considered himself Christian, and before he came out had been involved in gay-bashings. Fred Phelps website happily proclaims that Matthew Shepherd has been burning in hell for (as of today) 1303 days. Anti-gay violence is a disgrace to society. I used to be homophobic too. I got over it. > [@](#): > > d) Would you disown a child who came out as gay/lesbian/bisexual? Would you forbid your child to have a gay/lesbian/bisexual friend? No and no, clearly. 😉 > [@](#): > > e) Personal beliefs aside, how do you feel about the laws? Do you keep your religious beliefs separate? Do you think homosexuality is immoral, but should be legal? I think I have covered “do you keep your religious beliefs separate.” I don’t think homosexuality is against the Bible. It’s been debated for a long time now, there are a variety of opinions, I’ve stopped caring. > [@](#): > > f) How do you feel about transsexuality? I’ve always assumed the attitude was hostile, but I can’t imagine the Scriptural precedant for it. I don’t think there is one. And the trans movement is one that I fight for, so there you go. > [@](#): > > g) I believe that homosexuality, bisexuality, and heterosexuality are all inborn. If science comes to the same conclusion, would that make a difference for you? Or would it simply be another animal drive to be repressed, like heterosexual desire outside of marriage? My own experience and the experience of many others leads me to believe very strongly that in the vast, vast majority of cases it is inborn, or at least has a strong genetic basis. Homosexuality doesn’t hurt anyone. Bring on the hot gay love. 😉 That’s about where I stand. I know it’s a bit muddled, Hamish, but I hope that it’s helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/106 "2002-05-15T20:36:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andygirl \* > \*\*Three pages in might be a little late to enter the fray. My apologies. \*\* It’s never too late to enter the fray. This is another perspective I was looking for. > [@](#): > > \*\*That’s about where I stand. I know it’s a bit muddled, Hamish, but I hope that it’s helpful. \*\* I didn’t find it muddled at all. It helps me to understand how someone comes to terms with being both gay and Christian, since there are plenty of people who seem to think the two can’t be resolved. In retrospect, I think I would have added a question about lesbianism and the Bible. All the passages I can think of condemn male homosexuality only. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/107 "2002-05-16T15:54:41Z")
**Andygirl** , the one Biblical cite I’ve seen used against Lesbians is the bit towards the end of the first chapter of Romans. However, it’s my understanding that there is Talmudic interpretation of stuff in the Law that suggests that a Lesbian relationship is contrary to Jewish interpretation of the Law (as opposed to explicitly forbidden in the Law itself). **Chaim** or **Zev** might be able to speak to this issue (although I know that they avoid speaking on homosexuality and the Law unless specifically asked, in order to avoid giving offense – since they are not compelled by their beliefs, as are evangelical Christians, to rub gay people’s noses in their alleged sinfulness. For the record, some interesting stuff over on the Pizza Parlor in [this thread](http://thebruces.stormbirds.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9230) directly relates to the subject here. I want to quote **Joey Carmen** ’s response to something I said (excerpted in the internal quotes in his quote) as illustrative of the stance taken by many evangelical Christians on the subject – it explains for **Hamish** the “love the sinner, hate the sin” perspective in the context of one’s Christian duty far better than any paraphrase I could give of that viewpoint (especially since in general I do not concur in their POV): > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by **Polycarp** _ > > > > Try this: > > > > I for one don’t care what you think of “homosexuality.” > > > > I care very deeply what you think of homosexual people – because they, like us, are sinners saved by the grace of God. > > On the same token Poly what you think of “homosexuality” is not the issue…what God has said in his Word is the issue. All sin as defined by scripture, no matter what it is, is to be repented from…we are no longer murders, liars, drunkerds, fornicators, and even homosexuals if it is defined in scripture as sin. etc. etc. because we are now new creations if we have his Spirit living in us…if we believe Jesus to be Lord by faith we are to renew our minds IN Christ Jesus. > > I believe according to scripture homosexuality is a form of sin…I could not and would not call myself truthful if I told you or any other person otherwise and I only say it now because I want to be totally forthright and honest about what I believe. > > But to use that belief to condemn…that is the sin…to use my belief as a means to hurt homosexuals purposely and with malice…that is the sin…To share in my belief with those whom I am ministering to because I honestly believe the scripture defines something is sin is neither judging or condemning. It is expressing what is found in the scripture which I believe is the written account of Gods’ Word. > > Newsflash, there are alot of things found in the Word that offend, there where alot of things Jesus said that offended and because of their choice people turned away and rejected Him. Did Jesus sin against the Pharisee, the other 38 original disciples that decided not to follow him after he told them that He was the bread of Life? > > I have been discriminated against because I am Latino by the white community it is my choice to hate them or to forgive them or to believe this about them or not to believe about them. I only hurt myself if I let what they believe define what I am or what my beliefs are. > > When we stand before the Lord God He will ask what we did with His Son who he sacrificed for us. Do you think he is gonna accept…“God I was sinned against by those people…they caused me to reject your Atonement and your Holy Spirit. I am not responsible for my choice…”? > > > [@](#): > > > > If you say and do things that drive them away from that salvation, no matter your motives, you’re sinning against them. > > > > If they refuse the grace of Christ thanks to hearing a stance that raises their sin above that of the Pharisees and scribes, then whoever is teaching that stance is sinning against them. > > > > And it doesn’t matter who the speaker’s ancestry was. > > Yes yes yes yes! Some people are using God and the Bible as an excuse to practice their own sin, Prejudice, Murder, Envy, Hate…Welcome to the human condition…this is not a new phenomina. I would be very naive to say otherwise. But please do not paint everyone that happens to believe that homosexuality is a choice and is defined in the Bible as sin, and not the natural function of sexuality between two people, with the same brush of condemnation. Because then you are doing the very same thing you are accusing others of doing…Judging according to your standard of morality. > > **Recondite** [a gay Christian poster who had commented]…none of that was said to keep you from God or to offend you. I don’t care what kind of sinner you are now…not my business…I do care about homosexual people…but I would be lying to you…if you should ask…or if necessary…if I told you anything other than what I believe is true regarding homosexuality. God will not reject you on that basis…but if I am right…that homosexuality is indeed a sin then He will change you not me, he will deal with that in your life…not me. > > But understand this… it is absolutely my job to warn you that if you don’t know Jesus as Lord you are dead in your sin…It is absolutely my job to tell you that you can live…you can repent from a life that ends in death, no matter what sins are your vice…in fact all your sin has been forgiven and reconciled in God’s eyes… Jesus said “He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.” > You can turn from that a life that is dead…and be born again to a new life. > > It is absolutely first and foremost my job to tell you that God loves you more than you could ever know! I pray right now that you know that… that God reveals that to you. > > I agree very much with **Polycarp** … I don’t need to point out your sin…you know it very intimately. But if Jesus is not your Lord you are dead and this life you are now living is really not living at all. I am not talking about homosexuality either…I am talking about a life absent of God’s Spirit…it is not really life at all. > > I don’t disclude you or shun you…I simply am a witness to the Power found in the Gospel for all people, including you! I’m not promoting this POV, but does it help, **Hamish** in understanding where they are coming from? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/108 "2002-05-16T19:18:35Z")
Back again with \*\*links[/b!! These three threads contain some of the most interesting writing on the subject ever to grace these boards (as well as some of the most inane witnessing ever to disgrace anywhere!): [Christianity and Love: Part I](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=26726) [Part II](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=28843) and [Part III](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=30477) ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/109 "2002-05-17T00:37:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Besides which, I’ll call Homebrew and JayJay to witness that I’m saying just about the same things I do here over on the Pizza Parlor in the appropriate forums, for what good that may be doing. I haven’t read this thread in a few days so I’m a little late in affirming that **Polycarp** is indeed a strong advocate over there. For **Hamish** , you might pick up the book _Stranger At The Gate_ by **Mel White** for one conservative Christian Gay man’s point of view on Christianity and Homosexuality. Mel White was a speech and ghost writer for Jerry Falwell, Ollie North, Pat Robertson and Billy Graham before coming out in the early 1990s when he could no longer put up with their positions. He was raised in an evangelical home and spent many years in the evangelical movement trying to be straight. Eventually he couldn’t keep the facade up any longer and this book is his story. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/110 "2002-05-17T02:59:16Z")
[\*\*Polycarp wrote: Trust me, we’re trying. But voices of reason and compassion tend to get swallowed up. Our only hope is that after the earthquake, wind, and fire, that still small voice will persist.\*\* I know. I apologize to you for venting the way I did. Sometimes my own frustration builds I just want to scream. If you turn the other cheek to me, I promise only to kiss it 😃 Here’s some good news: [From the Atlanta Journal-Constitution](http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/epaper/editions/thursday/business_c33e5442b231a17e00fd.html). ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/111 "2002-05-17T17:37:02Z")
Your beard tickles!! 😉 Seriously, the _Southern Voice_ is one of the best-produced weekly newspapers, of any category, I’ve ever run into. Barb and I pick it up every week\* – there’s a couple of places in Raleigh that carry it – and I review the contents. It’s not afraid to take contra-P.C. stances (as with the Jesse Dirkhising case) where it believes that justice and liberty demand it. And this tourism campaign was the lead story this week. - By mutual agreement as to what we individually “feel called to do,” my issue is gay rights, hers is abuse of the poor, especially by agencies that are supposed to be helping them, we back each other as needed on our personal issues, and we team up on idiots trying to restrict Christianity to their particular POV. ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/112 "2002-05-18T15:41:08Z")
Thanks for the links **Polycarp**. I only had a chance to skim them, but it does help me to understand the the homosexual-sex-is-wrong-but-that’s-just-my-belief crowd. But what about the Anita Bryants of the world, the ones who feel strongly enough about other people’s sex lives that they campaign for _political_ and _legal_ discrimination against us? Where are they coming from? Many liberal-minded Christians have told me they don’t consider such people Christian, but the people who hold these beliefs obviously do consider themselves religious. Is there any Scriptural justification at all for carrying such beliefs into the political sphere? ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/113 "2002-05-18T16:43:52Z")
It is very hard to understand that different is not wrong. It is even harder to accept that God might love someone more than you. It gets downright painful to admit that God might love them more, because they need more of His love. Keeping score is at least something you can understand. So, a lot of people are tempted to add up their sins, and keep score. That way, you can tell who is better than whom. It’s all pointless, and accomplishes little, other than to bolster someone’s feeling of importance at the expense of another’s. But it is just another in the many ways that people sin. Of course it’s much easier to see those logs in other eyes, than to spend those hours removing splinters from your own. People are lost. All of them are lost. Although it is probably true that some are more lost than others, lost is lost, and finding the Way is the answer, not blaming the other people who got lost. Love is the answer. Don’t worry about the question. It isn’t logical, and you can’t have proof. You can live without it, and die without it, but life, and death are both better with it. Let God take care of Divine Justice, and live in happy hope that someday Fred Phelps will embrace you with unfettered love. Until then, Poly, and I, and a whole lot of others will have to do. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623/114 "2002-05-18T18:19:40Z")
Amen to what Tris said! Uh, one thing I’ve found very strongly felt by many evangelical Christians is a sense of _corporate sinfulness_, with a wrathful God of justice all kinds of upset as to the tendency of all us humans to indulge our own pleasures instead of listening to Him. ( **Czarcasm** and others have done near-parodies of this stance, since it’s widely publicized and much of the reason that people who reject the whole Christianity schmear cannot bring themselves to believe with any personal integrity, regardless of what they may conclude about the existence of any god or whatever – even if there _is_ one, the apparent paranoid megalomaniac who created people with the capacity for evil so that he could have them tortured eternally that most people get from that POV is not the one that anybody in his right mind would believe in. Whatever. Given that POV, though, both a concern for your salvation and a fear that God is going to start sending down punishment on all and sundry for the offenses committed against His will by some, heterodyne to produce the idea that maybe we ought to start making sure that all these sinners are kept from sinning insofar as laws will permit us to – and at least not condoning their sin by giving it any legal recognition, as in domestic partner registries, non-discrimination in hiring and housing, and all that sort of thing. Given the pissed-off tyrant they want to appease, it makes a perverted sort of sense. (Obviously this is by no means my POV, but it’s the closest I can come to interpreting that viewpoint in response to **Hamish** ’s question above.) The God that **Tris** and I know, whose love includes a compassion for the needs of _all_ His creation, who can weep along with **andygirl** at the pain she feels at the end of a relationship, is far from that tyrannical ogre-deity. But both can be supported by selective quotation from Scripture. I hold to the idea of the all-loving God because He is the one that Jesus portrayed in his teachings and lived out in his life. And if any part of Christianity has any validity whatsoever, it would have to be that Jesus had a handle on Who sent him. All the other stuff builds on that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-attempts-dialogue-with-evangelical-christians/107623.md?page=5)